Should T'Kuvma have lived?

[Charles Phipps]

I feel like his death was the biggest (and earliest) misstep of Discovery. He was a very compelling villain (?) with his nationalist religious agenda being diametrically opposed to the Federation's secular pluralism. However, unlike Kol of Kor who is a rich and powerful leader as well as utterly corrupt, T'Kuvma of T'Kuvma sincerely believed his values.

I could have seen him as an ongoing season-wide villain and an exploration of his philosophy as well as relationships with the other Klingons.

I feel like the story lost all tension with the Klingon War since we didn't have our version of Darth Vader or the Emperor to embody it. It was made depersonal by Michael killing the Unforgettable.

 

[Kpnuts]

Destroying his ship so early was a mistake too. Tons of potential there, all wasted when they barely showed it.

But yeah T'Kuvma was very compelling, certainly more than L'Rell. Same with Lorca, one of the few interesting characters in season 1, and then they just turned him into a cartoon villain.

 

[fireproof78]

I do think more focus on the Klingons with T'Kumva as their leader would have been appropriate.

 

[Lord Garth]

Well, I was under the impression T'Kuvma would be around more than he was in the hype before the series. But, given that the actor Chris Obi was charged with sexually assaulting multiple acting students (link), I'm glad they didn't keep him around.

 

[DarKush]

I thought T'Kuvma was an interesting character and it would've been neat to keep him, or an adherent who could communicate his views better than what we got. He presented philosophical challenges to both the Federation and the Klingons and the series never did much after "The Battle of Binary Stars" to explore those again. The Klingons largely became implacable, brutal enemies, not much different than they've been depicted on other Trek series or movies. But even then, for DISCO Season 1 to be set during a Federation-Klingon War they didn't focus as much on the war as they could've. It would've been nice to get an episode set on Qo'noS and dealing with Kol or seeing other Federation starships/crews dealing with the war. I know that DISCO was more tightly wound to make that harder to do, but for me it would've been nice to see that. Fleshing out Kol and the Klingon Houses more might have also provided an opportunity to see a diversity of Klingons as well.

One thing that has always bothered me is that when Burnham shoots T'Kuvma it just felt so cold. I wish she had shrieked or yelled, a raw cry of rage and pain when she shot him. An Anakin style "Nooooooooo" could've worked here; partly kidding.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Well, I was under the impression T'Kuvma would be around more than he was in the hype before the series. But, given that the actor Chris Obi was charged with sexually assaulting multiple acting students (link), I'm glad they didn't keep him around.

I feel that's definitely worth recasting or killing a character for, yep.

One thing that has always bothered me is that when Burnham shoots T'Kuvma it just felt so cold. I wish she had shrieked or yelled, a raw cry of rage and pain when she shot him. An Anakin style "Nooooooooo" could've worked here; partly kidding.

Michael didn't start the war but her executing T'Kuvma probably kept it going.

 

[DarKush]

I feel that's definitely worth recasting or killing a character for, yep.



Michael didn't start the war but her executing T'Kuvma probably kept it going.

I would agree that Burnham's actions helped prolong the war. She even argued against taking his life before they beamed over. A captured T'Kuvma could've been more easily discredited. So Michael giving into emotion, over her logic, in grief over Georgiou, I felt needed to be more visceral than what we got.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I would agree that Burnham's actions helped prolong the war. She even argued against taking his life before they beamed over. A captured T'Kuvma could've been more easily discredited. So Michael giving into emotion, over her logic, in grief over Georgiou, I felt needed to be more visceral than what we got.

I dunno, I did get it from the fact she went, "Well, I'm gonna murder him for this"

Then coldly carried out.

Michael is a great character, IMHO, but I feel like someone on the writing staff really doesn't understand dynamics very well. Her character is great but requires someone to play off of because she's naturally reserved. Part of the issue the show has is they want Michael to be front and center all the time--but "We're already watching the show. You don't need to sell her to us."

 

[DarKush]

I dunno, I did get it from the fact she went, "Well, I'm gonna murder him for this"

Then coldly carried out.

Michael is a great character, IMHO, but I feel like someone really doesn't understand dynamics very well. Her character is great but requires someone to play off of because she's naturally reserved. Part of the issue the show has is they want Michael to be front and center all the time--but "We're already watching the show. You don't need to sell her to us."

I don't think Michael is naturally reserved, I see that more of her being raised culturally Vulcan. One of the most interesting aspects of the character to me is her trying to reconcile her human emotions/nature and her Vulcan upbringing. I think it leads to some very uneven emotional swings.

For me, I think a character like Burnham has been more of a supporting character, scene stealing character in other Treks, so having her as the main character hasn't always worked so well, because I don't think the writers always know what to do with her. It's almost like having Spock, Data, Worf, Odo, Quark, Seven of Nine, or T'Pol as the main character. While they all could work as the lead character, being the commentator about humanity on the side made them stand out even more IMO.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I don't think Michael is naturally reserved, I see that more of her being raised culturally Vulcan. One of the most interesting aspects of the character to me is her trying to reconcile her human emotions/nature and her Vulcan upbringing. I think it leads to some very uneven emotional swings.

For me, I think a character like Burnham has been more of a supporting character, scene stealing character in other Treks, so having her as the main character hasn't always worked so well, because I don't think the writers always know what to do with her. It's almost like having Spock, Data, Worf, Odo, Quark, Seven of Nine, or T'Pol as the main character. While they all could work as the lead character, being the commentator about humanity on the side made them stand out even more IMO.

I tend to agree. I also feel like they keep throwing things at her past to make her feel more epic. I'm actually okay with her being Spock's sister but then her mother now invented time travel/artificial wormholes.

Give that to Tilly or Bridge Cyborg girl.

 

[fireproof78]

don't think Michael is naturally reserved, I see that more of her being raised culturally Vulcan. One of the most interesting aspects of the character to me is her trying to reconcile her human emotions/nature and her Vulcan upbringing. I think it leads to some very uneven emotional swings.

I agree and think she is enjoyable because of that interplay as well as struggling with trauma.

 

[DarKush]

I tend to agree. I also feel like they keep throwing things at her past to make her feel more epic. I'm actually okay with her being Spock's sister but then her mother now invented time travel/artificial wormholes.

I see it a little differently. I was okay with her mother being the Red Angel more than her being Spock's sister. I think the Spock sister thing was the overreach. I've said for a while now, in different threads that I wish Michael had been adopted by Soval or even T'Pol. For one, it would've been a nice nod to ENT and a traditional passing the Trek torch from ENT to DISCO, but also because it wouldn't have felt like Burnham was so shoehorned into Trek history by making her the never mentioned sibling of arguably Trek's most popular character. We knew so little about Soval even on ENT, and then we didn't know what happened to T'Pol after ENT so there was a lot of room there to explore. Though with Soval as the foster father, and perhaps him not being married, or his wife was emotionally withdrawn, so that would've made the Georgiou-Burnham relationship work even better, because I thought Michael's warm relationship with Amanda undercut the mother-daughter relationship vibe I got from Burnham and Georgiou. They didn't spend enough time with Georgiou and Burnham so the audience could see what Georgiou was teaching Michael, or was supposed to teach her. This is where them using some flashbacks throughout Season 1 could've helped.

Further, DISCO doubled down on the overreaching by having Burnham being the best at the Vulcan Science Academy and then how important she was to Spock's personal growth in Season 2. I thought that was piling on too much. And that came perhaps from some concerns if a black female lead character, the first for a Trek series, would be a tough sell for the audience. So they ladled on so many 'cool' things that it sometimes came across as overkill, and ironically fanned some of the flames against the character, and gave some toxic fans a legit enough excuse to harp on or hide behind.

And to me they didn't even need the Spock connection at all for Burnham to work. A Vulcan connection I do see working for the character, though they could've also had Shran as her foster parent and just had her humanity chafing against an Andorian upbringing.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Eh, Burnham's Spock connection may be weird but I really like Fran's Sarek and it allowed the introduction of DISCO Spock that I really approve of the scenes of. Ethan Peck is no Nimoy (who could be) but I think he's recognizably Spock, which is high praise in and of itself.

But yes, I will also admit that if you just had, "Michael Burnham is a human raised by completely original Vulcans, including Fran's student who might just be Sarek's friend or pupil" then almost nothing would change and fans would have still been invested as a human raised by Vulcans is inherently interesting in and of itself.

 

[fireproof78]

Caution: longer than usual post upcoming.
When initially stated that Michael was Sarek's ward and adopted daughter I was generally on board. While Spock's background is largely enigmatic, taking need to know to its most extreme, Sarek's is even more so. He is Spock's dad, and ambassador to Earth and...that's really it. Yet, even in TNG his fame and renown is well known, but we know not as much about such a big impressive career.

Discovery offers, at least for me, a much more interesting dive in to the character of Sarek. Despite his pushing Spock to embrace the Vulcan way while he himself being both an insider and a bit of an outsider. He seems to be just as inclined to trust humans than Vulcans. He relies upon Picard for the emotional support rather than another Vulcan. He marries two humans, after being with a Vulcan priestess (possibly a clue to how he got Spock's Katra ceremony done?) and spending a lot of time on Earth.

Michael's relationship with Sarek, despite being a bit forced, is the kind of exploration with TOS era characters that I wanted. Sarek is such a fascinating character when you realize he both is deeply attached to his Vulcan ways, he also has deeper attachments to his family. He values family so much that he risks much in his push for Michael and Spock to join the Expedition. And then, when Spock rejects it and both kids end up at Starfleet he has to face that his kids will not always choose what he sees as the logical choice.

Sarek is a character worth exploring and unfortunately the only way to do so was through introducing someone like Michael. The family angle probably was too much, and her being adopted by another Vulcan but taught by Sarek would probably work just as well. But, the chance to explore Sarek was worth it.

Mileage will vary.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I admit my thoughts were that Sarek had an arranged marriage like most Vulcans but she died, perhaps in child birth because they were being ultra-traditionalist about the birth and forgoing SCIENCE in favor of cave birth. Something that Amanda was very good for going along with (perhaps too much so).

 

[Timo]

Sarek is a character worth exploring and unfortunately the only way to do so was through introducing someone like Michael. The family angle probably was too much, and her being adopted by another Vulcan but taught by Sarek would probably work just as well. But, the chance to explore Sarek was worth it.

Also, Sarek having the adoptive daughter, even if for storytelling convenience, ended up being a big part of who he is. Basically, we now have every reason to think he drags home these interspecies experiments every second Tuesday, resulting in frequent divorces and a pattern of equally experimental marriages in an attempt to cope.

The story arc structure of DSC has its pros and cons. Personally, I rather enjoy the major revamps after the first couple of episodes of both seasons so far, with all the wriggling required to "continue" a storyline that for assorted reasons in fact has to be dropped entirely. Getting two arcs at the price of one per each season is a pro in my books. So I say good riddance to T'Kumva, and welcome the shift to the Mirror storyline.

Not because I'd have anything against T'Kumva, though. And everything that was good about him could always become a spinoff show, in the current atmosphere. No need to put the same actor behind all that makeup, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

T'Pol. For one, it would've been a nice nod to ENT and a traditional passing the Trek torch from ENT to DISCO,

Would have been nice to see T'Pol again and I did love that old tradition of every new series getting a send off from one of the crew of the season before

 

[DarKush]

Eh, Burnham's Spock connection may be weird but I really like Fran's Sarek and it allowed the introduction of DISCO Spock that I really approve of the scenes of. Ethan Peck is no Nimoy (who could be) but I think he's recognizably Spock, which is high praise in and of itself.

But yes, I will also admit that if you just had, "Michael Burnham is a human raised by completely original Vulcans, including Fran's student who might just be Sarek's friend or pupil" then almost nothing would change and fans would have still been invested as a human raised by Vulcans is inherently interesting in and of itself.

I got to admit that I can't stand Frain's Sarek. I like him in other roles, but his Sarek is too...serpentine. I think he would make for a great Romulan or even TOS Klingon but his Sarek doesn't work for me. I'm iffy on Peck's Spock. I like Quinto more in the role, even if he plays it over emotional-I don't blame Quinto for that because that's more of the tone of the Kelvin films-everything is turned to 11.

I've thought before that Burnham and Spock instead of being siblings could've been Vulcan Science Academy rivals or lovers/had some romantic feelings toward each other and that would still have created an incentive for her to help find him and clear his name, while also neatly explaining perhaps why Spock had never talked about her in TOS, etc. Going with the rival thing, Sarek logically picking Michael over Spock for the Academy could've triggered the rift between father and son, though that might make Spock look overly emotional or petty. I was also thinking that Sarek could've picked Spock over Michael, giving into his emotion over logic, and once Spock found out that his father had chosen his progeny over the better student rebelled by joining Starfleet. Both father and son having an emotional reaction, and perhaps unwilling to admit it to themselves and definitely to each other.