Should Sisko had stepped in clash between Winn & Keiko

[Photon]

I agree, FOR THE MOST PART, w/ Ms O'Brien about what was taught at her; yet, she came of across and shrill and intransigent . While, Winn and even Sisko seemed much more accommodating w/both sides. Sisko could also have curried more favor w/the Bajorans by getting Ms O to simply say something about the Prophets

 

[Ragitsu]

Do you mean "intransigent"? Anyhow, religion has no place in a science course.

 

[Photon]

Do you mean "intransigent"? Anyhow, religion has no place in a science course.

Agree, but Ms. O didn't help her cause or Sisko's by being so....overly emotional.

 

[Takeru]

Do you mean "intransigent"? Anyhow, religion has no place in a science course.

But Keiko was the one who decided to talk about the bajoran religion in science class, that she calls the celestial temple and the prophets wormhole and wormhole aliens respectively doesn't change the fact that she was talking about the literal gods of the bajorans.

And of course the bajoran religion wasn't just a belief, they had actual proof their gods exist and the religion started in the first place because the prophets send orbs and visions to them.
When there's tangible proof and it is literally possible to visit the temple and the prophets and talk to them while using the runabout's scanners to collect data about them religion and science cannot be separated anymore.

Keiko was stubborn and disrespectful, there was a line where she pointedly said something like "the wormhole aliens who the bajorans believe to be their prophets ..." and that was really unnecessary and she only did it to piss off Winn. Keiko was wrong, she should have made concessions because when she decided to teach a mostly bajoran class about the bajoran religion she should have treated their beliefs with respect.

 

[Orphalesion]

But Keiko was the one who decided to talk about the bajoran religion in science class, that she calls the celestial temple and the prophets wormhole and wormhole aliens respectively doesn't change the fact that she was talking about the literal gods of the bajorans.

And of course the bajoran religion wasn't just a belief, they had actual proof their gods exist and the religion started in the first place because the prophets send orbs and visions to them.
When there's tangible proof and it is literally possible to visit the temple and the prophets and talk to them while using the runabout's scanners to collect data about them religion and science cannot be separated anymore.

Keiko was stubborn and disrespectful, there was a line where she pointedly said something like "the wormhole aliens who the bajorans believe to be their prophets ..." and that was really unnecessary and she only did it to piss off Winn. Keiko was wrong, she should have made concessions because when she decided to teach a mostly bajoran class about the bajoran religion she should have treated their beliefs with respect.

While I agree that Keiko was not 100% right in what she did...the Wormhole is literally outside the station and is an important part of the day-to-day life on Deep Space 9...she pretty much has to teach the kids about it. It would be like not teaching kids that live in New York about the Statue of Liberty or something.
And before Winn budded in she was merely stating the physical facts about it.

 

[Ragitsu]

But Keiko was the one who decided to talk about the bajoran religion in science class, that she calls the celestial temple and the prophets wormhole and wormhole aliens respectively doesn't change the fact that she was talking about the literal gods of the bajorans.

And of course the bajoran religion wasn't just a belief, they had actual proof their gods exist and the religion started in the first place because the prophets send orbs and visions to them.
When there's tangible proof and it is literally possible to visit the temple and the prophets and talk to them while using the runabout's scanners to collect data about them religion and science cannot be separated anymore.

Keiko was stubborn and disrespectful, there was a line where she pointedly said something like "the wormhole aliens who the bajorans believe to be their prophets ..." and that was really unnecessary and she only did it to piss off Winn. Keiko was wrong, she should have made concessions because when she decided to teach a mostly bajoran class about the bajoran religion she should have treated their beliefs with respect.

...eventually, the wormhole aliens are described as having a weakness to mortal technology (by one of their "evil cousins", the Pah Wraiths). It turned out Keiko was correct.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

The whole thing was just a drawn-out setup by the writers to establish a higher degree of tension between the Bajorans and the Federation, which was a major part of that season. Its other purpose was to establish how ruthless Winn could be.

The writers didn't particularly care about the final outcome of the classroom dynamics. Why do I say that? Because we never find out what accommodations - if any - that Keiko makes in the end, as she resumes teaching, and it's never brought up again in any context. What mattered was that we had to watch out for Winn from now on, as she was behind the bombing and assassination attempt.

 

[Takeru]

While I agree that Keiko was not 100% right in what she did...the Wormhole is literally outside the station and is an important part of the day-to-day life on Deep Space 9...she pretty much has to teach the kids about it. It would be like not teaching kids that live in New York about the Statue of Liberty or something.
And before Winn budded in she was merely stating the physical facts about it.

She has to teach about it but why not call it the celestial temple? That's what the bajorans have called it for thousands of years so why not let that be its name? Objects in our solar system have names that have religious origins but I doubt Keiko declares "Sol 4 isn't a god of war!" and rolls her eyes when someone mentions Mars.

 

[Tosk]

"Not teaching anything that scientifically conflicts with religion" is not a compromise, it's total capitulation. Winn managed to get everyone arguing just one side or the other, rather than Keiko's perfectly fine position of "I'll teach what I teach and you teach what you teach." I have no respect for a religion so frail that it can be damaged simply by examining it, however tangentially.

she came of across and shrill and intransigent

When exactly was Keiko screaming or sharply high-pitched?

Edit:

But Keiko was the one who decided to talk about the bajoran religion in science class, that she calls the celestial temple and the prophets wormhole and wormhole aliens respectively doesn't change the fact that she was talking about the literal gods of the bajorans.

Teaching the known science about the wormhole is not the same thing as 'talking about religion'. The fact that the Prophets are real beings does not validate anything about the Bajoran religion other than the fact that they worship something that exists.

When there's tangible proof and it is literally possible to visit the temple and the prophets and talk to them while using the runabout's scanners to collect data about them religion and science cannot be separated anymore.

Of course it can be separated. If a group were to worship a tree, you could teach others about the properties of a tree without ever delving into the religious aspects of it. You can learn thousands of facts about snakes without ever bothering to deal with the talking one that tricked people into eating apples. What about those who worship Sol and Luna? Does that preclude ever learning about celestial mechanics? And if not, then why is the wormhole exempt?

 

[Charles Phipps]

I feel like the episode was a poor depiction of the Scopes Trial because Keiko and the Federation are teaching a highly subjective understanding of the Prophets of Bajor (and they are the Prophets of Bajor) that turns out to be more or less objectively wrong. They're engaged in cultural imperialism and want to indoctrinate the children of Bajor into their secular ways.

It feels WAY more like Indian Schools than it does evolution vs. Creationism.

Because...and I'm going to blow your mind, Creationism isn't real.

The Prophets are.

Plus, also, why the hell is Keiko teaching about the Prophets in the first place?

 

[Tosk]

Plus, also, why the hell is Keiko teaching about the Prophets in the first place?

She's teaching science. They are studying the wormhole, the beings who created it are part of that.

 

[Trekker09]

Haven’t watched “In the hands of the prophets” recently, but it always seemed clear-cut to me that Sisko was doing the right thing: “It is my philosophy that there is room on this station for all philosophies.” It's not really a typical science vs faith conflict though….the concept of worshipping aliens that have been proven to exist, that have physical vulnerability, is hard to relate to, IMHO.
Ironic that this episode about a school bombing should come up now. I just wish the Texas elementary school yesterday had been as empty as Keiko’s classroom. Religion does seem to play a part in the US insanity of allowing guns and assault weapons to be so available…statistically, evangelicals are much more likely to own guns and vote against background checks or any sensible reforms.
DS9 seemed to perceive, decades ago, the connection between fundamentalist religion and violence.

Sorry to veer off topic.

 

[Charles Phipps]

She's teaching science. They are studying the wormhole, the beings who created it are part of that.

Yes, which feels like something you'd wait until you'd actually understand it. Which the Federation actually...doesn't. It's not a matter of cultural sensitivity (which isn't a bad thing--even if it shouldn't impede science) but the fact she's attempting to teach with an example designed to undermine Bajoran faith.

She's teaching science. They are studying the wormhole, the beings who created it are part of that.

Yes, which feels like something you'd wait until you'd actually understand it. Which the Federation actually...doesn't. It's not a matter of cultural sensitivity (which isn't a bad thing--even if it shouldn't impede science) but the fact she's attempting to teach with an example designed to undermine Bajoran faith.

Haven’t watched “In the hands of the prophets” recently, but it always seemed clear-cut to me to me that Sisko was doing the right thing: “It is my philosophy that there is room on this station for all philosophies.” It's not really a typical science vs faith conflict though….the whole concept of worshipping aliens that have been proven to exist, that have physical vulnerability, is hard to relate to, IMHO.

I mean, it depends if you consider divine beings that aren't omnipotent to be less than godlike.

Ironic that this episode about a school bombing should come up now. I just wish the Texas elementary school yesterday had been as empty as Keiko’s schoolroom. Religion does seem to play a part in the US insanity of allowing guns and assault weapons to be so available…statistically, evangelicals are much more likely to own guns and vote against background checks or any sensible form of control.
DS9 seemed to perceive, decades ago, the connection between fundamentalist religion and violence.

Sorry to veer off topic.

They were definitely going for the Scopes Trial but what I like about DS9 is the fact Ron Moore and Ira were never afraid to call out the Federation for hints of being colonialist and imperialist or just flat out feeling they have a "White Man's Burden." The Bajorans being the "frontier" of the Federation and the Wild West themes of Deep Space Nine mean that the story tends to make them the Natives.

Keiko considers the Bajoran faith to be superstitions and wants to teach it should be disregarded. It was hard not to think of this episode when the scandals regarding indigineous children came up that were reeducated against their will.

Which is ironic because Kai Winn, of course, represents the fundamentalist evangelical view.

 

[kkt]

I don't think the writers were going for the Scopes Trial in particular. There's any number of times religious teaching has conflicted with what is learned through science: flat earth, earth-centered solar system vs. sun-centered, etc.

And I don't think Keiko was shrill just because she didn't roll over instantly.

 

[Ragitsu]

Wasn't Galileo mentioned?

 

[Ragitsu]

I mean, it depends if you consider divine beings that aren't omnipotent to be less than godlike.

...and aren't invulnerable. They also require assistance to comprehend specific concepts related to time; their instructor is a mortal human (sort of, anyhow...his "true nature" is plot-convenient). Do people worship the Q?

 

[Charles Phipps]

...and aren't invulnerable. They also require assistance to comprehend specific concepts related to time; their instructor is a mortal human (sort of, anyhow...his "true nature" is plot-convenient). Do people worship the Q?

I mean, a lot of people would.

Basically, to quote a friend of mine, "No, the Hebrew God doesn't need a starship. However, Ra and Odin loved boats."

 

[Ragitsu]

I mean, a lot of people would.

Basically, to quote a friend of mine, "No, the Hebrew God doesn't need a starship. However, Ra and Odin loved boats."

Ra and Odin are more humanlike* in their depictions/motivations than the deity worshiped by all of the Abrahamic faiths; it is by no means a surprise that differing storytellers exhibited differing levels of creativity.

Spoiler

* Barring the falcon's head, naturally.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Ra and Odin are more humanlike* in their depictions/motivations than the deity worshiped by all of the Abrahamic faiths; it is by no means a surprise that differing storytellers exhibited differing levels of creativity.

Spoiler

* Barring the falcon's head, naturally.

Which is I think part of the issue. The Prophets of Bajor are specifically gods who live above Bajor and not related to the rest of the galaxy.

 

[Ragitsu]

*wormhole aliens