Spoilers SFDebris' "What's Past Is Prologue"-review

[Rahul]

SFDebris posted his newest Discovery-review, episode 13 "What's Past Is Prologue":

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/c113.php​

Now, normally I think a single episode-review is not necessarily a reason for an entire thread. But in my opinion, this warrants one, because Chuck goes very much into details about the show in general. Things I find especially noteworthy in this video:

• A great characterisation of Lorca

Now, I personally only ever saw post-reveal-Lorca as a moustache-twirling evil wanna-be world overtaker, whose only characterisation was his evil plan. That was because pre-reveal Lorca was pretty interesting - it was obvious he had a dark secret, but after the reveal, he never layed down his motivations, instead only spurring cheap B-movie dialogue about him defeating the heroes and becoming the new Terran leader.

Chuck spans a quite interesting bow, where he connects the pre-reveal actions with his post-reveal motivations, even so far as comparing him to "Macbeth". I'm not so sure I agree, but it's an interesting perspective nonetheless.

The other interesting thing is his brutal smackdown of Discovery's junk-science: Remember, this one is the episode where they HAVE TO SAVE THE ENTIRE MULTIVERSE!
He puts a lot of thoughts I had about that in a very concise way, better than I ever could, and I think it's just damn entertaining watching him rage so hard against that, while at the same time taking the characters and their motivations as serious and honest as he does.

The third most interesting thing - one I honestly already forgot about - was that he asks: Why do they work with Georgiou against Lorca, not with Lorca against Georgiou? Sure, Lorca is evil as well. But Georgiou is the one that bombed a planet, built universe-destroying WMDs, and ate sentient beings for pleasure. Lorca...did none of that.

Enjoy. And discuss!

 

[Rahul]

*Just a small warning: His long rant about DIS' mushroom science comes right at the beginning - the more favourable episode analysis after that. So don't be put off by his ramblings right in the beginning.

 

[Tuskin38]

I love his reviews, even when they don’t agree with mine.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Anyone who prefaces a Star Trek review with a rant about "junk science" isn't worth the bandwidth.

 

[DaveyNY]

I KNOW THE ANSWER TO #3 ...





Because They paid more for Michelle Yeoh.

 

[Tuskin38]

Anyone who prefaces a Star Trek review with a rant about "junk science" isn't worth the bandwidth.

His reviews are good

Entertaining, full of humour

 

[fireproof78]

As I fan of SF Debris and his analysis I appreciate the opportunity to discuss. My first point is regarding the science and how bad it is. Now this will be long, and my base premise is thus-Star Trek has a long history of bad science. I'm not using this as an excuse, but more, when I conclude, why it is not as off putting as it might be to others.

The spore network is inherently silly, regardless of the base science behind that, but the drive itself was tolerable, as least as far as a science fiction extrapolation went. The idea of destroying the whole multiverse, as Chuck notes, is the problem. As many have pointed out as a critique of the drive, why wasn't discovered earlier and what's to keep it from being used later on in the franchise? If it is so powerful then any one across the multiverse could use.

That's why the Spore Drive has become problematic in the universe.

Now, why isn't it problematic for me from an enjoyment point of view? Because, as bad as it sounds, my threshold (pun partially intended) for bad science is very high. The Spore network could function just fine for jumping to the multiverse as long as it doesn't have the universe ending implications. Obviously, it would have to be nerfed in some way by TOS, but that's a problem for later on and I'll judge that when it happens.

But, Trek is rife with bad science, from evolutionary quandaries, to god like beings who can caused universe ending explosions just by having a civil war. We have aliens who use thought as the basis of reality, noncoporeal beings who can adjust the temperature of physical objects, as well a lot of reproductive oddities. The more I learn about different scientific disciplines to more I realize that Star Trek is not always the most accurate. The question is one of enjoyment.

As for Lorca, this one is more difficult for me, largely because I question Michael's motives on this and Chuck's points stand out far more upon rewatch than before. Prime Georgiou was an interesting character, but not one that I felt needed to continue on per se. Thus, saving Mirror Georgiou is not a good one. I do agree with the analysis that Mirror Lorca could easily return, much to the consternation of many.

As per usual, Chuck does an outstanding review with plenty of thought provoking material.

 

[CorporalClegg]

It isn't any more "silly" than if you traveled beyond the edge of the Milky Way you could suddenly move styrofoam cups with your brain and read faster than that guy from those 90s infomercials.

 

[fireproof78]

It isn't any more "silly" than if you traveled beyond the edge of the Milky Way you could suddenly move styrofoam cups with your brain and read faster than that guy from those 90s infomercials.

Well, that was well put and much shorter than I said... nicely done.

 

[Phoenix219]

Having to put aside their feelings of being used and manipulated to begrudgingly help Lorca take down the bigger threat that just happens to have the face of Burnham's mentor would have been great drama, especially with the ambiguity that could have been left in place regarding Lorca's true nature and intentions.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

The gloves came off on this one. He's been rather neutral on Discovery so far doing more of an episode summery with general thoughts thrown in here and there. He's being objective and then once he's finished with season one he's planning on making a video going into his subjective thoughts on Discovery. I'm looking forward to seeing that video.

 

[Philip Guyott]

The third most interesting thing - one I honestly already forgot about - was that he asks: Why do they work with Georgiou against Lorca, not with Lorca against Georgiou? Sure, Lorca is evil as well. But Georgiou is the one that bombed a planet, built universe-destroying WMDs, and ate sentient beings for pleasure. Lorca...did none of that.

It’s been a while since I have watched Discovery, so please correct me if I am wrong, but Emperor Georgiou wanted nothing to do at all with the prime universe, even to the point of wanting to suppress any knowledge of it, at any cost. However Lorca lied in order to take command of a prime universe ship (the Feds only working spore drive) and had previously blew up the USS Buran, thus being a direct threat to the Federation in a time of war. Furthermore his actions prevented important intelligence about the Klingon’s getting to Starfleet, which if they were unable to get meant the certain destruction of the Federation. From the perspective of the mirror universe Lorca appears to be the lesser of two evils, but for the crew of the Discovery Lorca is a direct threat and guilty of crimes pertaining to their own universe.

Their first duty must be to protect the Prime Universe.
If only the showrunners had felt the same way!

 

[Rahul]

However Lorca lied in order to take command of a prime universe ship (the Feds only working spore drive) and had previously blew up the USS Buran, thus being a direct threat to the Federation in a time of war. Furthermore his actions prevented important intelligence about the Klingon’s getting to Starfleet, which if they were unable to get meant the certain destruction of the Federation. From the perspective of the mirror universe Lorca appears to be the lesser of two evils, but for the crew of the Discovery Lorca is a direct threat and guilty of crimes pertaining to their own universe.

Intelligence information crucial to the war that - as the video rightly pointed out - Lorca himself actually gathered in the first place!

 

[Philip Guyott]

Intelligence information crucial to the war that - as the video rightly pointed out - Lorca himself actually gathered in the first place!

Which is of no help if the intelligence does not get sent to the people who need it.

 

[Vger23]

Intelligence information crucial to the war that - as the video rightly pointed out - Lorca himself actually gathered in the first place!

Which is of no help if the intelligence does not get sent to the people who need it.

The most interesting thing is that there are times where you really feel that Lorca is devoted to the war effort. I always look at "Butcher's Knife" and the opening of "Sis Pacem" and think that I was totally convinced of his dedication at that point. Hell, he nearly sacrificed the Discovery to shield the Gagarin.

 

[Philip Guyott]

The most interesting thing is that there are times where you really feel that Lorca is devoted to the war effort. I always look at "Butcher's Knife" and the opening of "Sis Pacem" and think that I was totally convinced of his dedication at that point. Hell, he nearly sacrificed the Discovery to shield the Gagarin.

Did Lorca know at that time if he could get back to the mirror universe? If he is stuck in the prime universe it makes sense for him to be on the winning side. But yeah, you make a good point.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

The most interesting thing is that there are times where you really feel that Lorca is devoted to the war effort. I always look at "Butcher's Knife" and the opening of "Sis Pacem" and think that I was totally convinced of his dedication at that point. Hell, he nearly sacrificed the Discovery to shield the Gagarin.

This is why I didn't believe the mirror Lorca theory when it was first suggested on here. However ...

Did Lorca know at that time if he could get back to the mirror universe? If he is stuck in the prime universe it makes sense for him to be on the winning side. But yeah, you make a good point.

This is a point, he still needed more data from jumps at this point to reach the MU, and was still trying to manipulate circumstances to where he could gather it.

 

[Vger23]

This is why I didn't believe the mirror Lorca theory when it was first suggested on here. However ...



This is a point, he still needed more data from jumps at this point to reach the MU, and was still trying to manipulate circumstances to where he could gather it.

Same...I was telling people on here to let their inane and improbable theories go.


Yeah.....

 

[fireproof78]

The most interesting thing is that there are times where you really feel that Lorca is devoted to the war effort. I always look at "Butcher's Knife" and the opening of "Sis Pacem" and think that I was totally convinced of his dedication at that point. Hell, he nearly sacrificed the Discovery to shield the Gagarin.

Though, as noted, Lorca was convinced that he was guided by destiny, so he may not have had the same level of fear of trying to save the Gagarin if he were not so motivated.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

As I fan of SF Debris and his analysis I appreciate the opportunity to discuss. My first point is regarding the science and how bad it is. Now this will be long, and my base premise is thus-Star Trek has a long history of bad science. I'm not using this as an excuse, but more, when I conclude, why it is not as off putting as it might be to others.

The spore network is inherently silly, regardless of the base science behind that, but the drive itself was tolerable, as least as far as a science fiction extrapolation went. The idea of destroying the whole multiverse, as Chuck notes, is the problem. As many have pointed out as a critique of the drive, why wasn't discovered earlier and what's to keep it from being used later on in the franchise? If it is so powerful then any one across the multiverse could use.

That's why the Spore Drive has become problematic in the universe.

Now, why isn't it problematic for me from an enjoyment point of view? Because, as bad as it sounds, my threshold (pun partially intended) for bad science is very high. The Spore network could function just fine for jumping to the multiverse as long as it doesn't have the universe ending implications. Obviously, it would have to be nerfed in some way by TOS, but that's a problem for later on and I'll judge that when it happens.

But, Trek is rife with bad science, from evolutionary quandaries, to god like beings who can caused universe ending explosions just by having a civil war. We have aliens who use thought as the basis of reality, noncoporeal beings who can adjust the temperature of physical objects, as well a lot of reproductive oddities. The more I learn about different scientific disciplines to more I realize that Star Trek is not always the most accurate. The question is one of enjoyment.

As for Lorca, this one is more difficult for me, largely because I question Michael's motives on this and Chuck's points stand out far more upon rewatch than before. Prime Georgiou was an interesting character, but not one that I felt needed to continue on per se. Thus, saving Mirror Georgiou is not a good one. I do agree with the analysis that Mirror Lorca could easily return, much to the consternation of many.

As per usual, Chuck does an outstanding review with plenty of thought provoking material.

Indeed. If you want scientific accuracy, Star trek has never been the place for it. You only have to look at TOS with it's doomsday machines and giant space amoebas or galactic barrier craziness to see that. All of that stuff plus monumental list of other scientific inaccuracies from the various series always seems to get a free pass for some reason.

The mycelial network is bonkers, but to me it's not any less bonkers than Star Trek's concept of faster than light travel or the various super-drives like Quantum Slipstream and Transwarp. Chances are humanity will never break the lightspeed barrier, find a realm called subspace and any journey's beyond our solar system will be one way trips.