Sarek, Spock and the new movie

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Uncle Pennybags, May 26, 2009.

  1. Uncle Pennybags

    Uncle Pennybags Ensign Newbie

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    I just registered today, though I've lurked here and there on various trek boards over the years. I started on TOS (in re-runs) and have watched all the movies and following versions many times over.

    I've reading alot about Spock and Sarek's "emotional" responses in this new star trek, and how the characters are changed.

    One thing to think about is this. If Sarek truly loves Amanda (which we get to see 100 years later, in TNG), isn't it logical to assume that he sees some value in humanity and human emotions?

    Second. If he sees some value in it, being that Spock has a fully human mother, the logical thing to do would be to let her dote on him emotionally and handle any and all emotional questions/issues that Spock might have. She would be better equipped to deal with it, and Sarek gets to maintain his Vulcan logic.

    Amanda's death changes everything. Not just emotionally, but logically. Sarek's admition of love and softening, makes logical sense.

    As for Spock, well, he's always been an imperfect character, though probably the most beloved in the series. One thing I have never understood (and perhaps somebody here knows the answer to this question), is what was the original reason for making him half-human.

    TOS never really deals with this, and treats Spock as if he was completely Vulcan. Was it simply to explain his presense on the Enterprise? Did they think, in the 60's that it was unbelievable to have a completely alien person on a ship full of humans, so make Spock half human just to get him on board? Or did they have plans for his human side that never really got explored?

    I was skeptical of a TOS reboot from the beginning, mostly because I like seeing the trek universe evolve, and getting new characters. I've liked them all, though I like DS9 and TNG the best. I even liked Enterprise. With that said, I think a TOS reboot almost DEMANDs exploring Spock's human side more. The fact that it was so unexplored doesn't really fit in with the way the Star Trek series progressed after TOS.

    Warf, who was fully Klingon, but raised by humans we got to see evolve and change. And we learned early on that he really had quite different attitudes than other Klingons, and did not really fit in with them.

    Warf's half-Klingon girlfriend had clear traits of both raises, as did Torres on Voyager, who had many episodes dealing with those issues.

    And Alexander is certainly no Klingon warrior.

    Troi never seemed to be very fond of Betazoid traditions and the other half-betazoid we meet in TNG is simply using his abilities to cheat in negotiations.

    There was Gul Dukat's half-bajoran daughter, whose entire reason for existance in the show was to tell "caught between two worlds" stories

    And, just being off the top of my head, I'm sure there have been many other half-breeds, and/or characters living apart from their culture. The argument could probably be made about Seven of Nine, or Data, or the Holo-Doctor as well basically telling the same type of stories.

    The point being, since TOS, any character that was been different than their own culture in some way has had a ton of time spent on developing those differences. Spock never really got any...At least not any that were explained.

    I liked the new Star Trek movie, much more than I expected to. I'm interested to see where it goes. The timeline has definitely been altered. Although, the problem being with time travel based plots, is that you never can count on things to stick. I mean, in the 3rd movie they could find out that they have to go back before Nero comes back in time and stop him, thereby putting the timeline exactly back to the way it was, leaving this trilogy as not much more than a "mirror universe" episode.
     
  2. Neeka Keet

    Neeka Keet Admiral Admiral

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    Worf dude, for the love of god his name is Worf. I'm sorry to be anal but that's one of my pet peeves.
     
  3. propita

    propita Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, but pretty minor--and he's a newbie here.

    Let's all cut him some slack as long as he never does it again! Right? ;)
     
  4. Phily B

    Phily B Commodore Commodore

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    Mr Wolf.
     
  5. Bamasi

    Bamasi Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    No slack for you! NEXT!
     
  6. Islander

    Islander Commodore Commodore

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    Well, for me and lwaxana, it always will be Mr. Woof.

    For the rest, always remember that Vulcans DO have feelings, in fact some pretty heavy ones, they just repress them. This is a trade even humans could learn, but something that could also fail when facing a highly traumatic experience. Loosing one's planet would classified as such.
     
  7. kythe

    kythe Commander Red Shirt

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    I disagree that Spock's human side wasn't explored. I think they did quite well with it. He was raised as a Vulcan and if anything, overcompensated as he tried to be as Vulcan as possible. We do meet his parents and some issues of his childhood struggles were addressed in Journey to Babel, and later in more depth in the movies.

    It does seem that some of the later hybrid characters you mention are more well-developed, but the Star Trek universe was already well established. The later series allowed more room for character development than TOS was able to do, considering that TOS had the responsibility of introducing Star Trek's basic concepts to us. You might consider Spock to be a prototype for the later hybrid characters, though I think he was well fleshed out.
     
  8. Neeka Keet

    Neeka Keet Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed.

    But on topic. I agree with the OP about the new possibilities of exploration for the Spock character as a hybrid, and Vulcans in general of course.
     
  9. KimMH

    KimMH “Like” fairy Admiral

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    the idea of the multi-racial offspring has a lot of weight in a diversifying world. being a child of two worlds is an additional hurdle for people to get over and how they face that struggle is often a key part of who they are. I think that is one of the points that Roddenberry was trying to make with Spock.
     
  10. ManOnTheWave

    ManOnTheWave Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Archie! Bring my beer!
     
  11. Uncle Pennybags

    Uncle Pennybags Ensign Newbie

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    Meh...I know its Worf.

    If you want to look for things to get upset about I can point you to a host of other typos in my post. First morning back at work after a long 3 day weekend. Multi-tasking, while typing a post about Star Trek, in kind of an off the top of my head ramble and lots of typos are getting in to be sure. I'm not really in the habit of proofreading my forum posts, but after re-reading it, perhaps I should start.

    I somehow also managed to type "races" as "raises". No idea where I would have thought that spelling was acceptable...or that it even makes any sense at all. I left the "c" out of Spock one of the times, wrote "existance" instead of "existence" and I'm sure that's far from all.

    But hey, since you corrected the spelling, clearly you understood who I was talking about and I got the point across.
     
  12. scottydog

    scottydog Admiral Admiral

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    And that very same theme -- being caught between two worlds -- is so powerful to us that future versions of trek emulated it. Consider Data in TNG, Odo in DS9, and the doctor in VOY.
     
  13. VulcanJedi

    VulcanJedi Captain Captain

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    This all reminds me of the episode of the Office where Dwight has to "stay on task" to prove his point to Jim. So Jim starts talking about nuBSG, which Dwight loves, and says that the show is a "carbon copy of the original" and that the character names are "Dumbledore Calrissian" and it has "wookies." Oh man. Dwight wanted to say something so bad.

    Office fans? There is a Trek connection; Rainne (sp?) Wilson was in "Galaxy Quest."

    As for Sarak----all I have to add is he is the actor who played Eric Little from "Chariots of Fire" and this new timeline concept opens a world of possibilities for Spock and his father. Now his dad can date again.
     
  14. Jeri

    Jeri Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Holy cow, you are right. Sarek can date. Think he will meet a young Perrin?
     
  15. Uncle Pennybags

    Uncle Pennybags Ensign Newbie

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    Dating is illogical. I'm pretty sure Vulcans simply use eHarmony to select a mate.


    In all seriousness though, with their population down to 10,000 members or so, perhaps they will need to pursue some kind of reuinification with the Romulans sooner rather than later.
     
  16. FarDreaming

    FarDreaming Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I don't really see that much of a change in Sarek and Spock- we are just seeing them in circumstances that we never saw them in before and as such are looking at them from different angles. The discussion between Sarek and the 11-year old Spock in the movie is not very different from the discussion that the two of them had in Yesteryear.

    Spock's need to be more Vulcan and less human would be necessary if he were to function in Vulcan society. And let's face it- that was were he would have the best chance at "passing". No one would ever mistake him for a human, no matter how emotional he might be. Sometimes we base our decisions on how to prepare our children for life based upon the skills we think they will need- it may not always be the best in the end, but we can't see into the future. I have always believed that Sarek thought it best that Spock be wholly versed in how to behave as a Vulcan when he was younger not for any personal desire, but to try and help him fit into that society and not be ostrasized.
     
  17. Jeri

    Jeri Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You might want to look up some of the previous threads on this topic. It's been discussed at length; and also even up to and including pro-Vulcan humanoids, like the Mintakins.
     
  18. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

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    we get to see that sarek loves amanda in journey to babel both in the scene with them alone and later in sickbay after he recovers from his surgery.
    he might not come out and say the words but the understanding is pretty clear.
    spock talks about the difficulty of coming from two heritages as far back as early season one.

    and yeah gene in one of the books even said that yes spock overcompensates at times in trying to be more vulcan then other vulcans.
    but even as tos went on we see him soften a little.
    then he goes to an extreme at the start of the star trek the motion picture.
    but after the enounter with vger we get very possible the most comfortable spock had ever been in his own skin.
     
  19. Aragorn

    Aragorn Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sarek can date Winona Kirk! And zaniness ensues!!!!
     
  20. mredom

    mredom Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I have to chime in on this because I have, quite frankly, spent to much time thinking about it.

    First off-I think the events on Vulcan up until the destruction of the planet had pretty much run the same as in the previous timeline. Spock declined to enroll at the Vulcan Science Academy, as he did in TOS, and I believe that this led to he and Sarek not speaking in the original timeline for 19 years (that sounds right, but honestly just pulling it out of my posterior).

    When Sarek and Amanda come on board during "Journey to Babel", Spock relates that he and his father have been estranged for some time, as I recall because of his enlistment in Starfleet. He was after all the first Vulcan in Starfleet, and the first to decline the VSA. When he declined admission in the movie, Sarek did not look happy, and even protested his decision.

    I think there is a good chance that Spock hadn't spoken to his parents since enlisting in Starfleet, a situation that could have led to an even more severe emotional response because in his first action known to his parents as a Starfleet officer, he failed to rescue his mother. With both Sarek and Spock feeling a profound sense of loss, these old grudges come toi an end much sooner, as they are faced with being the only family each other has.

    It's also clear to me that once enlisted in Starfleet, Spock's path changes radically as the Narada has drastically altered events at Starfleet. The Enterprise is rolling off construction much later, and probably a much different vessel than the original. He serves with Christopher Pike, but he does not serve with him on board the Enterprise. Both Pike and Spock are assigned to Starfleet Academy where they have different, but intertwined careers.

    In the end, Spock and Sarek do develop a relationship reminiscent of TOS, as do Spock and Pike. Where they go from here though becomes significantly different.

    The Talosians are still out there, as is Kahn, and a myriad of parallel earths, and the Guardian of Forever. (I know we won't go there because Harlan would need his pound of flesh!)

    I for one hope they stay away from the potential Fanwank stories, and send us truly where no one has gone before, we'll see what they cook up.

    Man-I love this movie, and I love Trek as much as ever!
    :)