Sarek and Amanda in Journey to Babel
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Re: Saek and Amanda in Journey to Babel
As presented in the episode, what you mention, along with Sarek saying things like: "My wife, attend" it looks like Vulcan males dominate their wives.
As presented in the episode, what you mention, along with Sarek saying things like: "My wife, attend" it looks like Vulcan males dominate their wives.
Re: Saek and Amanda in Journey to Babel
Sarek definately gives that impression, but other aspects of Vulcan culture seem more female dominated. T'Pau conducted a marraige ceremony, and another Vulcan woman (T'Lar?) performed the ritual where Spock's katra was reunited with his body. We see a lot of female priestesses, and Vulcan women appear portrayed as having equal opportunity and respect in their careers.
Sarek's behavior almost seems out of place compared to other examples.
Edit to add: I just realized I misspelled Sarek in the title. Is there any way to edit that?
Sarek definately gives that impression, but other aspects of Vulcan culture seem more female dominated. T'Pau conducted a marraige ceremony, and another Vulcan woman (T'Lar?) performed the ritual where Spock's katra was reunited with his body. We see a lot of female priestesses, and Vulcan women appear portrayed as having equal opportunity and respect in their careers.
Sarek's behavior almost seems out of place compared to other examples.
Edit to add: I just realized I misspelled Sarek in the title. Is there any way to edit that?
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Re: Saek and Amanda in Journey to Babel
That was simply the way Sarek and Amanda acted.
I don't think you can get an accurate view of any society by simply looking at one couple as an example. Depending on who is looked at, married couples may be defined as male dominated, female dominated, egalitarian, abusive, unfaithful, and a whole lot of other things.
As a metaphor, I know I wouldn't trust a medication that's only been tested on one person. I wouldn't trust one example to represent an entire culture.
To paraphrase the great Groucho Marx, "American Indians always walk in single file. At least the one I saw did."
That was simply the way Sarek and Amanda acted.
I don't think you can get an accurate view of any society by simply looking at one couple as an example. Depending on who is looked at, married couples may be defined as male dominated, female dominated, egalitarian, abusive, unfaithful, and a whole lot of other things.
As a metaphor, I know I wouldn't trust a medication that's only been tested on one person. I wouldn't trust one example to represent an entire culture.
To paraphrase the great Groucho Marx, "American Indians always walk in single file. At least the one I saw did."
Re: Saek and Amanda in Journey to Babel
I agree that Amok Time gives a very different picture. T'Pau definitely appeared to be in charge.
I agree that Amok Time gives a very different picture. T'Pau definitely appeared to be in charge.
Yes, T'Pau was portrayed as a powerful leader in Vulcan in Amok Time.
OTOH, after T'Pring demands the kalifee, T'Pau asks her if she is prepared "to become the property of the victor," suggesting that a wife's relationship with her husband is in a different league from her standing in the community.
OTOH, after T'Pring demands the kalifee, T'Pau asks her if she is prepared "to become the property of the victor," suggesting that a wife's relationship with her husband is in a different league from her standing in the community.
Gotta remember that it was the 60's (the whole show is horrifically sexist,) and the writers were making the particulars of vulcan culture up as they went along. Hell, they were making everything up as they went along. Personally I'd just see it as being something unique to Sarek and Amanda.
Possible. It's also possible that, by invoking a challenge that willl cost at least one man his life, T'Pring forfeits her rights as a Vulcan citizen. Had she not challenged, she would not have become Spock's property but his wife.
It's also possible that Amanda is subservient not because she's a woman but because she's the consort of the person with official duties. If a woman had been the ambassador, her husband may have kept a similarly subservient profile. Of course, that's called into question by the quote "He's a Vulcan, I am his wife."
Re: Saek and Amanda in Journey to Babel
That kind of illogical dichotomy can be found in current cultures. For instance, in Pakistan, women are generally very subservient to their husbands (and are murdered or disfigured by their families if there's a suspicion of adultery), yet we they've had a female PM (where the USA still hasn't had a female president).
Comparing marital customs to religious or political rulers is...well, apples to oranges.
Doug
That kind of illogical dichotomy can be found in current cultures. For instance, in Pakistan, women are generally very subservient to their husbands (and are murdered or disfigured by their families if there's a suspicion of adultery), yet we they've had a female PM (where the USA still hasn't had a female president).
Comparing marital customs to religious or political rulers is...well, apples to oranges.
Doug
There's always also the possibility that the head of the clan dominates the rest of the clan, and specific circumstances dictate whether a matriarch or a patriarch happens to sit on the big chair at the end of the dining table. Say, the society could be thoroughly ageist, and Sarek would happen to be the eldest of his clan - but women in general would live longer than men, giving a matriarchal appearance to the overall society.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
That's a really good point. Also Vulcan is entirely separate from human culture. They're logical beings, but they put an enormous about of emphasis on culture, tradition, and ritual- things which may not always, in and of themselves, be logical.
I have always taken it to be more because of his position in society that has her walk behind him. As far as "He's a Vulcan, I'm his wife" goes that could also indicate that it's her humanity that defers to him. And as the poster above noted what is logical to a Vulcan, might not be logical to a human- and vice versa.
Maybe it's just an "outwardly" cool Vulcan asking his wife to focus her attention on something he thinks is important. And he's the ambassador from a major Federation power. A human diplomat might be more subtle (at least from a human perspective). But maybe Sarek thought he was being subtle.
"He's a Vulcan, I'm his wife." I could drive a starship through the suppositions (60's, pre-freminism, weird alien cultures) that statement opens up. I prefer to think that Amanda is a thinking, rational, accomplished human being. I can't picture her submitting to any culture, human or otherwise, that she found to be personally insulting.
"He's a Vulcan, I'm his wife." I could drive a starship through the suppositions (60's, pre-freminism, weird alien cultures) that statement opens up. I prefer to think that Amanda is a thinking, rational, accomplished human being. I can't picture her submitting to any culture, human or otherwise, that she found to be personally insulting.
Again - stupid 1960s writing.
It's just one of those things, like so many of the condescending ways in which women were portrayed/treated, that one just chalks up to the times.
Same with Janice Lester and the "no female starship captain" rule. No, Lester wasn't nuts all along and that's why she wasn't allowed to be a captain. She wasn't allowed to be a captain because those in the 1960s who wrote episodes evidently couldn't see a time when women would be the equal of a man. Not a personal servant (yeoman,) not a telephone operator (Uhura,) not a nurse (Chapel,) all of which were "acceptable" jobs for women, but equal in any way and up to any career, including doctor or captain.
The same mindset held for other futuristic 1960s TV shows. Jane Jetson may have pushed buttons to cook/do laundry and she had a robot/maid (female, of course!) but she was still a 1950s/early 1960s housewife, tending to the apartment while George was at work.
Some people can't see beyond their time. In all fairness though, I read sci-fi back in the day and it's amazing how many stories had the woman still at home. Many did not foresee women going out to work en masse. They wrote the future from a 1950s/1960s mindset.
It's just one of those things, like so many of the condescending ways in which women were portrayed/treated, that one just chalks up to the times.
Same with Janice Lester and the "no female starship captain" rule. No, Lester wasn't nuts all along and that's why she wasn't allowed to be a captain. She wasn't allowed to be a captain because those in the 1960s who wrote episodes evidently couldn't see a time when women would be the equal of a man. Not a personal servant (yeoman,) not a telephone operator (Uhura,) not a nurse (Chapel,) all of which were "acceptable" jobs for women, but equal in any way and up to any career, including doctor or captain.
The same mindset held for other futuristic 1960s TV shows. Jane Jetson may have pushed buttons to cook/do laundry and she had a robot/maid (female, of course!) but she was still a 1950s/early 1960s housewife, tending to the apartment while George was at work.
Some people can't see beyond their time. In all fairness though, I read sci-fi back in the day and it's amazing how many stories had the woman still at home. Many did not foresee women going out to work en masse. They wrote the future from a 1950s/1960s mindset.
Oh lord. Janice Lester! *Facepalm*. Even as a preteen girl when I first saw that one in the early '70's... I wsh I could've gone WTF. Kirk and buds get all teary eyed that "If only the poor dear had been happy as a woman", none of this would've gone down.
She was nuts boys! A quart low. The elevator didn't go all the way to the top. She needed to be in a nice padded room near Captain Garth. Compared to that bit of nonsense, the bit with Amanda was easier for me to mentally "adjust" as a kid.
Yeah, I read alot of science fiction that was like that. Heinlein was my hero, just cause he seemed to occassionally "like" his female characters.
She was nuts boys! A quart low. The elevator didn't go all the way to the top. She needed to be in a nice padded room near Captain Garth. Compared to that bit of nonsense, the bit with Amanda was easier for me to mentally "adjust" as a kid.
Yeah, I read alot of science fiction that was like that. Heinlein was my hero, just cause he seemed to occassionally "like" his female characters.
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