Sacrifice of Reason

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by MAGolding, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I just watched "Sacrifice of Angels" on Heroes and Icons 02-05-2018 and couldn't help noticing a few ways that reason was sacrificed during the episode.

    For example, it seems to me that if Sisko is in command of a fleet of six hundred space warships, he should be an admiral, probably ranking at least as high as any admiral in Earth history.

    Any readers who are lazy and don't want to read a long post should give up right now and just admit that Sisko should have been promoted to a high rankng admiral before commanding the fleet in "Sacrifice of Angels".

    Did you know that in the armed forces of the USA and its Nato allies the highest rank in times of war is a four star (or equivalent insignia) general or admiral? In times of war it is possible to have a rank one step higher, the equivalent of a five star general or admiral.

    And as far as I can tell Starfleet has similar ranks. According to Memory Alpha the flag officer ranks of Starfleet are, lowest to highest, Commodore or Rear Admiral Lower Half, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, Admiral, and Fleet Admiral.

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Admiral

    But I think that any large interstellar polity is likely to have many more grades of admirals.

    Suppose that there is a planet in a star system that is inhabited, having a native intelligent species or being colonized by outsiders, and that star system belongs to the large interstellar polity. That interstellar government is likely to have a space naval officer in command of the defenses of that star system such as space fortress or space warships. And that officer is likely to be at least a captain.

    Then the officer in command of ten such star systems is likely to be at least a commodore or a rear admiral lower half.
    The officer in charge of one hundred such star systems is likely to be at least a rear admiral.
    The officer in charge of one thousand such star systems is likely to be at least a vice admiral.
    The officer in charge of ten thousand such star systems is likely to be at least an admiral.
    The officer in charge of one hundred thousand such star systems is likely to be at least a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of one million such star systems is likely to be at least one grade above a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of ten million such star systems is likely to be at least two grades above a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of one hundred million such star systems is likely to be at least three grades above a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of one billion such star systems is likely to be at least four grades above a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of ten billion such star systems is likely to be at least five grades above a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of one hundred billion such star systems is likely to be at least six grades above a fleet admiral.
    Any admiral in a higher command than that is likely to be at least seven grades above a fleet admiral.

    If that interstellar government claims a solar system that is uninhabited and has no commericial activities like asteroid mining, it is likely to have at least an observation station in it monitoring interstellar traffic to detect invading enemy fleets, with an officer at least as high as a lieutenant in command.

    Then the officer in command of ten such star systems is likely to be at least a lieutenant commander.
    The officer in charge of one hundred such star systems is likely to be at least a commander.
    The officer in charge of one thousand such star systems is likely to be at least a captain.
    The officer in charge of ten thousand such star systems is likely to be at least a commodore or a rear admiral lower half.
    The officer in charge of one hundred thousand such star systems is likely to be at least a rear admiral.
    The officer in charge of one million such star systems is likely to be at least a vice admiral.
    The officer in charge of ten million such star systems is likely to be at least an admiral.
    The officer in charge of one hundred million such star systems is likely to be at least a fleet admiral
    The officer in charge of one billion such star systems is likely to be at least one grade above a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of ten billion such star systems is likely to be at least two grades above a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of one hundred billion such star systems is likely to be at least three grades above a fleet admiral.
    Any admiral in a higher command than that is likely to be at least four grades above a fleet admiral.

    Suppose that the interstellar government claims volumes of space that are at least partially separated by unclaimed volumes of space. That government is likely to have automated observation stations somewhere in or near each solar system in that unclaimed space to monitor interstellar signals and traffic to detect incoming invasion fleets, etc. The officer in command of the enlisted personnel who occasionally inspect and maintain the automated observation stations in ten such unclaimed solar systems in unclaimed space is likely to be at least an ensign.

    The officer in charge of one hundred such star systems is likely to be at least a lieutenant junior grade.
    The officer in charge of one thousand such star systems is likely to be at least a lieuteanant.
    The officer in charge of ten thousand such star systems is likely to be at least a lieutenant commander.
    The officer in charge of one hundred thousand such star systems is likely to be at least a commander.
    The officer in charge of one million such star systems is likely to be at least a captain.
    The officer in charge of ten million such star systems is likely to be at least a commodore or a rear admiral lower half.
    The officer in charge of one hundred million such star systems is likely to be at least a rear admiral.
    The officer in charge of one billion such star systems is likely to be at least a vice admiral.
    Then the officer in command of ten billion such star systems is likely to be at least an admiral.
    The officer in charge of one hundred billion such star systems is likely to be at least a fleet admiral.
    The officer in charge of any higher command is likely to be at least one grade above a fleet admiral.

    The Milky Way galaxy is estimated to contain between one hundred billion and four hundred billion stars.

    Any important and large interstellar government is likely to need to have naval coverage of all three classes of star systems; claimed and inhabited systems, claimed and uninhabited systems, and unclaimed systems that are uninhabited or inhabited by non citizens of that government. Since it is hard to predict the relative proportions of the three types, it is hard to predict the highest rank of admiral in charge of a territorial division of that space realm. But it is likely to be at least as high as Fleet Admiral and possibly many steps above fleet admiral.

    But what about the admirals in charge of fleets preparing for potential war or fighting in actual wars.

    Suppose that each fleet unit contains ten units on the next lower level.

    Then ten space battleships are commanded by a commodore or a rear admiral lower half.
    Then one hundred space battleships may be commanded by a rear admiral.
    Then one thousand space battleships may be commanded by a vice admiral.
    Then ten thousand space battleships may be commanded by an admiral.
    Then one hundred thousand space battleships may be commanded by a fleet admiral.
    Then one million space battleships may be commanded by an admiral one grade above a fleet admiral.
    Then ten million space battleships may be commanded by an admiral two grades above a fleet admiral.

    But suppose that each fleet unit contains only two units on the next lower level.

    Then 2 space battleships are commanded by a commodore or a rear admiral lower half.
    Then 4 space battleships are commanded by a rear admiral.
    Then 8 space battleships are commanded by a vice admiral.
    Then 16 space battleships are commanded by an admiral.
    Then 32 space battleships are commanded by a fleet admiral.
    Then 64 space battleships are commanded by an admiral one grade above a fleet admiral.
    Then 128 space battleships are commanded by an admiral two grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 256 space battleships are commanded by an admiral three grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 512 space battleships are commanded by an admiral four grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 1,024 space battleships are commanded by an admiral five grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 2,048 space battleships are commanded by an admiral six grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 4,096 space battleships are commanded by an admiral seven grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 8,192 space battleships are commanded by an admiral eight grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 32,768 space battleships are commanded by an admiral nine grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 65,536 space battleships are commanded by an admiral ten grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 131,072 space battleships are commanded by an admiral eleven grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 262,144 space battleships are commanded by an admiral twelve grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 524,288 space battleships are commanded by an admiral thirteen grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 1,048,579 space battleships are commanded by an admiral fourteen grades above a fleet admiral.

    And to compromise, it seems reasonable that in a space fleet each unit might contain five units on the next lower level.

    Then 5 space battleships are commanded by a commodore or a rear admiral lower half.
    Then 25 space battleships are commanded by a rear admiral.
    Then 125 space battleships are commanded by a vice admiral.
    Then 625 space battleships are commanded by an admiral.
    Then 3,125 space battleships are commanded by a fleet admiral.
    Then 15,625 space battleships are commanded by an admiral one grade above a fleet admiral.
    Then 78,125 space battleships are commanded by an admiral two grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 390,625 space battleships are commanded by an admiral three grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 1,953,125 space battleships are commanded by an admiral four grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 9,765,625 space battleships are commanded by an admiral five grades above a fleet admiral.
    Then 48,828,125 space battleships are commanded by an admiral six grades above a fleet admiral.

    Thus it is easy to picture that a fleet of 600 space warships in "Sacrifice of Angels" could easily have been commanded by an officer with the rank of vice admiral to fleet admiral, and quite possibly higher.

    So in order to make it plausible for Sisko to command 600 space warships in "Sacrifice of Angels" the writers should have had him promoted to some permanent admiral rank earlier in the series, and then have him given a temporary wartime rank several ranks higher - though still lower than his boss Admiral Ross - and have him command the vast fleet of 600 space warships in that temporary wartime rank. A promotion to commodore, rear admiral lower half, or rear admiral could have been justified by exposing Martok as a changeling. Then if Sisko's boss Admiral Ross was, say, a seven pip admiral, he might have found that his assistant Sisko was very competent and given him a temporary field promotion to maybe a five pip or six pip admiral and put him in command of the fleet headed for DS9 and the wormhole.

    In the Lensman series by E.E. Smith the rival powers Civilization and Boskone each rule most of a galaxy and millions of civilized and industrialized planets, each industrialized planet capable of building and crewing a few space battleships in a few months. Thus in the main space battles each fleet has millions of space battleships.

    Thus I suspect that in the space fleets of Civilization and Boskone there are several times as many admiral ranks as ranks of lower officer's, and that an officer who reaches the top rank in their navies spends far more time in the admiral ranks than he spends in the lower officer's ranks.
     
  2. Green

    Green Commander Red Shirt

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    No.
     
  3. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In the past, many here on trekbbs, myself included, have argued that Sisko should have been made an Admiral by the end of the series. However, it would not have been the only option. He could have been made Commodore, or because his authority came from being attached to an admiral, Fleet Captain.
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    On the other hand, the dialogue could be taken as Ross allowing Sisko to formulate a plan which the Admirals in command of the operation will then follow. Lowly planning offices do perform such services to the exalted Admirals ITRW.

    This need not detract from Sisko's ability to chitchat with General Martok on minor tactical issues during the battle. Indeed, Martok is very much in overall command here, giving the initial order for the fleet to move out, with Sisko remaining silent.

    In short, the idea that Sisko would have "commanded" the assault in "Tears of the Prophets" is a misinterpretation, not founded in dialogue or events. Dialogue remains mum on the subject, events confirm General Martok (of unknown rank-equivalence) to be in command. Sisko just gets to plan.

    As for the specific flag ranks associated with specific levels of command, we need not guess: we see specific Fleets (those non-ad-hoc formations of a couple of hundred ships) commanded by people with either two or three pips, and Sectors commanded by a three-pipper at a Starbase.

    Apparently, four-pippers don't stoop to commanding mere Fleets, and formations featuring multiple Fleets in DS9 tend to be joint operations with the likes of General Martok in command, confusing the picture.

    Single-pippers remain unseen, although of course I, too, would very much have liked Sisko to have become one at some point. What is their role? Well, in TOS, they command small and ad-hoc'esque starship formations, which may be what's going on in the deep background of DS9 as well (we don't see the Admirals stated to be in command of the smallish relief forces that assist Sisko in the likes of "Way of the Warrior" or "The Die is Cast").

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. BigDaveX

    BigDaveX Captain Captain

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    I always took it that Admiral Ross was the one nominally in command of the fleet, with Sisko acting more as a field commander of sorts. Maybe you could argue that his rank should have been Commodore or somesuch, but that rank seems to have been eliminated in the period between TOS and TNG.

    That said, it just seems to be an unspoken rule of Star Trek that the show's leading character isn't ranked any higher than Captain, I guess because they needed to keep contriving reasons for Kirk to take command of the Enterprise in the early films.
     
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  6. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    My impression is that the Federation and Starfleet are not anywhere near that big. If I remember right, they talked about Federation possible casualties in the Dominion War in the tens of billions. That does not suggestion tens of millions of inhabited star systems, or tens of thousands of battleships. In the Dominion War Starfleet reporting losses of hundreds of ships was a major loss.

    I would also consider that at the level of admirals, they may have importance indicated by who reports to whom, even if they're both admirals. Just like the US Navy of WW II was a huge force, but we still just had the same five grades of admirals that we had since the War of 1812.
     
  7. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The other thing to keep in mind is that with lots of ships be rushed into (or rushed back into) service, there may have been many more COs of rank below captain, like Dax.
     
  8. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Well, if you want to get technical. Sisko shouldn't have even been in the battle in the first place. Sisko was the commander of the fleet and main tactician in the Federations offensive against the Dominion. And yet he's on the front line in for this battle. Giving orders and coordinating movements. Had Sisko died, then the fleet has lost it's CO. With no identified XO to take his place, the Federation would've been screwed royally.

    What makes matters worse, is that communications go down right at the start of the battle. So Sisko's commands can't get to the rest of the armada. The battle pretty much becomes a melee, until the Klingons arrive and the Defiant can push through to DS9.


    #WherewastheEnterprisewhenyouneedher?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  9. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    It wouldn't have mattered if Sisko was killed, as communications were down anyway he couldn't really direct the battle ;/
     
  10. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, there was some foreshadowing that Sisko's fallback was to appeal to the Prophets. His placement near the forefront of the Federation fleet may have been critical.
     
  11. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The problem with your belief that Sisko might merely haven been the planner of the operation in "Sacrifice of Angels" is that he accompanied the fleet aboard the Defiant and clearly gave commands to the commander of the Defiant.

    In the previous episode "Favor the Bold":

    So they planned for both Martok and Worf to go to Klingon HQ to persuade Gowron to send the reinforcements that arrived in the nick of time in the battle. Martok and Worf are not seen in the rest of "Favor the Bold".

    http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/529.htm

    In the battle in "Sacrifice of Angels":

    So Sisko apparently gives orders to at least fighter squadrons 6,7, and 8, and at least Galaxy wings 91 and 93, and to at least two named captains.

    Everybody on DS9 thinks that Sisko is in command of the Federation fleet.

    What about Klingon General Martok who you think is in overall command of the fleet?

    When the Federation and Dominion first fleets approach each other:
    Later in the battle, as the Defiant seems doomed:

    http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/530.htm

    Thus the available evidence is that Sisko commands a large part of the Federation fleet in the battle and there is no a evidence that anyone else commands other parts of the fleet or the entire fleet. The episode makes it very easy to believe Sisko is the commander of the Federation fleet of about six hundred ships from the second and fifth fleets.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    How is that a problem? He is entitled to commanding the Defiant. In the battle, he commands nothing else at all.

    But I was talking about "Tears of the Prophets", where Sisko is appointed by Ross as the explicit designer, rather than commander, of the invasion of Chin'toka. In that episode, Sisko never commands the fleet in any fashion; he only operates his own ship (which of course happens to be in the thick of things, to discover the one tactical weakness of the enemy, and to exploit that weakness).

    So we have a mechanism for how Sisko could "realistically" be "in charge" without actually usurping an Admiral. Can this be used to explain "Sacrifice of Angels", too, then?

    1) All the planning before the battle is just that - Sisko plans, and tells his bosses what must be done for the plan to work. He speaks the same things with the same tone of voice to lowly Worf and exalted Martok, because he's not giving commands, he's giving expert opinion. It's the same as with Dietl or Skorzeny "commanding" Hitler on very special issues in private meetings.

    2) The "commands" Sisko issues during the battle are merely cues for the various stages of his plan to be put into action. Nothing he commands deviates from the plan - anything looking like a reaction to events is in fact the preplanned response to an anticipated enemy move.

    3) It is after Sisko issues his final "command" of moving into the apparent breach that the battle actually ensues. And after that point, somebody must be in command of the battle - but it sure as hell is not Sisko, who has his hands full flying his little ship.

    So there's definitely an opening for claiming that Sisko does not command the action even when he's the mastermind behind the plan, and the automaton who oversees the execution of the plan's initial, pre-battle stages. Clearly not what the writers intended, but ignoring them is once again our solemn duty...

    Beyond these two episodes, we see Sisko being able to tell those tiny fighters to do his bidding in subsequent fighting as well. Which doesn't mean every other starship skipper couldn't be doing the same at the same time, for their own sets of accompanying attrition craft.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure Ron Moore or Ira Behr considered making Sisko and Admiral at this time. I remember reading they decided against because "Star Trek is about captains".
     
  14. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, they did:

    I think that the next part of the entry is very interesting:
    Even though they never addressed it directly, they apparently were guided by the notion that something was going to be holding back Sisko's career. Maybe his communing with the Prophets? Falling into trances that throw him back into the 1920s? Dropping everything to peel potatoes for his dad?

    One thing that may be confusing is the extent to which Sisko is ordering or coordinating. Field commanders don't need to have authority over artillery in order to call in a strike. The plan may well have been to position smaller ships to "break through," employing the larger ships to clear up space. What Sisko says may be more of a matter of getting various elements together in order to time his run. There is no indication that once the Defiant got past the Dominion fleet that he was still giving order to other ships.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  15. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm guessing bursting into the signing ceremony for Bajor's entry to the Federation and forecasting eternal damnation might not have helped enamour Sisko to the top brass.
     
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  16. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think, in the end, Sisko's best destiny is being Captain, not being a pencil pushing Admiral.

    Dax even said as much in "THE SEARCH, PART I". She was right.
     
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  17. Nakita Akita

    Nakita Akita Commodore Commodore

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    Real generals go into battle!:beer:
     
  18. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    I think the premise that military ranks apply in Star Trek in any remotely similar way to the way they apply in the real military has been consistently disproven throughout all Trek series.