RTS players, a strategy question...

[archeryguy1701]

How do you get fast, and I mean at doing anything and/or everything? In all the RTS' I've played, and especially in Starcraft, which I just started playing, the computer and the one person I've played online is 1000x faster than me! And the problem is that I can't afford to do anything. If I put money into getting resource collectors/ producers, then I can't afford to do anything else. If I try to build up an army quickly or put up border defences quickly, then a) I run out of money quickly on that endeavour so the production is slow (defeating the purpose of rushing the units out) and b)I'll have spent all my money so I can't afford more resource gathering/producing units or buildings.

Heck, Starcraft has me pissed off all to hell because in four games in a row, they have rushed me before I can afford any defences, any units, or really anything, and I played the game and manged my resources four different ways. So obviously I would be better off watching how other players do it, but this will have to do for now. So, how do you get fast at RTS' or how do you manage your resources early on to get a decent game going?

 

[FPAlpha]

There are two essential things to any RTS

a) Learn the controls perfectly.. preferrably the keyboard shortuts as it saves tremendous time instead of using the mouse to click symbols

b) Learn build orders and if there are fixed maps learn their layout too.

Build orders are "pre-defined" steps in building units, ressource collectors, buildings and upgrades. For this to work well you have to experienced in the game with all of the races/factions/whatever so you know their strengths and weaknessess.

Many games are divided into three stages Early/Mid/Late and depending on the stage you are in you build your units accordingly.

There's obviously far more to it and the details vary for each game but in general you should do well if you have the hang of the controls and know your faction well to not waste time and ressources on projects you might not need or are not that effective against a particular unit.

Additionally you should also learn to micromanage your units/heroes as many RTS games employ a rock/paper/scissor system where a particular unit is especially effective against another but otherwise sucks, e.g. pikemen against cavalry or melee units against archers.
Usually the AI of the game is not that good to micromanage your own units if you give all of them an attack order against some enemy formation. To get the most bang for your back you might need to direct small units personally.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Thanks, FPAlpha. Have any tips on early resource management, developing a decent rush, or better yet, devloping a decent rush-defence quickly?

 

[Hitman]

That only comes with practice. But take into consideration that many times, your attack is your defence, so wasting time building defences is just that, wasting time. For instance, immediately construct the cheapest building that produces the fastest unit with lowest creation time - normally these are infantry that can attack light to medium armour, or at least entertain them. Then, while churning out hordes of them, go up the food chain in terms of power.

 

[firehawk12]

Sticky note build orders to your monitor. Every game has an basic build order that you have to learn, sort of like the opening move in chess.

Also, if you are playing a modern RTS, watch replays... lots and lots of replays. Something I saw with Company of Heroes was that people would commentate replays, explaining various decisions and mistakes to you. In fact, there's a replay podcast out there.

 

[Othello]

Play Civilization III or IV where you don't always have to attack everything wholesale to win.

 

[Unicron]

I agree with FPAlpha. Playing StarCraft online can be very daunting, because most players will already have these techniques down pat and some of the more elite players can even do brilliant or crazy tactics that give them an edge.

You should also learn how to control the geography of the map. That can be very key in games like StarCraft. Structures like bunkers and photon cannons, deployed properly, can make excellent defenses without necessitating a huge support force. Take advantage of ramps and bridges when you can, because the enemy will try those points the moment they think they can reach you. And if you're having trouble with being rushed, use some maps that have low rush effectiveness.

Hope this helps somewhat.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Thanks everyone! I was kinda worried that it would ultimately come down to time patience, and experience, but the general tips will definately help. For getting good, would I be best at sticking with the computer for now or would it help the learning to go online too? I have several year of RTS experience, but it has all been on computer, and I don't think I have religiously stuck with one game for very long periods of time.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

For getting good, would I be best at sticking with the computer for now or would it help the learning to go online too?

Online play against humans is quite a different thing for any game, AI isn't perfect and is quite flawed. A lot of the time it makes up for this by being programmed to cheat (it can see bit of the map it shouldn't be able to, see what you're building) etc. Although Total Annihilation had a great AI patch that ramped up the skill required to play.

So yeah, move onto play vs humans whenever you can, its more entertaining when they make a mistake you can take advantage of too.

 

[Brandonv]

For strategies for specific games, you might want to have a look at gamefaqs.com

Here is the link to the Starcraft page.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/25418.html

I think I am kind of in the same situation as you, archeryguy1701. I have played many RTS games over the years but have never really stuck with one and mastered it.

I don't think I have ever been particularly good at RTS games. I am currently playing the GDI campaign on Command & Conquer 3 and had to turn the difficulty down to easy.

 

[darthraidr]

just some random information about the evolution of the modern RTS: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18326

 

[DavidFalkayn]

I tend to like the Paradox games such as Victoria (my current favorite) and Europa Universalis that have a real time component while also having a pause key that allows you to do things like check factory production etc. Of course, you can't use the pause function in multiplayer...

 

[Kegek]

I tend to like the Paradox games such as Victoria (my current favorite) and Europa Universalis that have a real time component while also having a pause key that allows you to do things like check factory production etc. Of course, you can't use the pause function in multiplayer...

You can in local area connections. The pause can be unpaused by the other player after a while, though. And yeah, I prefer quasi-RTS games these days too, though I used to play a lot of the more regular kind.

 

[archeryguy1701]

A lot of the time it makes up for this by being programmed to cheat (it can see bit of the map it shouldn't be able to, see what you're building) etc.

I'm going to guess that Starcraft is one of those cheating AI's, isn't it? Everytime, it has beaten me the same way because I stank at getting fast: It would send in three base units immediately, and if they didn't kill me, a huge force would be soon following. Finally tonight, I got fast enough that I could get a decent defense force built before their first wave. And their first wave was frakking huge (and still early) and it was upgraded! I died there.

So, I tried one more time. I got a force out, though smaller, and upgraded them slightly. They still very quickly sent in a large upgraded force which I barely survived. So I carry on, and I keep buiilding units and acquire another mineral field. In the mean time, the enemy keeps building more units faster, and their minefields last longer!! We have the same number of mineral fields, the AI mines his far more, and they last longer! I run out of both (and most of my units trying to hold the AI off) and it still has both! It's been a week and I'm switching back to CnC and Battle for Middle Earth!

 

[Lindley]

Is this original StarCraft, or Brood War?

The original didn't get tough until the fourth or fifth mission, as I recall. The one with Duke and the crashed Norad II. Brood War was hard from the start, assuming the player was already familiar with the game.

The trick is to build a few defensive structures at "choke points", and back them up with mobile units----ranged to weaken the enemy, and melee to keep them from getting too close to your fixed defenses. You also need to go on the offensive sooner rather than later, while you've still got the minerals to rebuild if the enemy hits your defenses while a strike force is away. (Always leave a few units behind if you can spare them.)

Don't be afraid to do a hit-and-fade----there's no need to take out an entire base with one attack force, just do some damage and run while most of it's still intact. If they chase your retreat, you can usually sacrifice a few units to slow them down. Target defensive structures first, then production buildings.

I usually find that three gatherers on minerals and two on vespene is good enough to start with, but I supplement that whenever I have a bit of extra cash available. There's no rush to build up loads of those things too quickly, though.

 

[archeryguy1701]

I was playing a skirmish on the original Starcraft. The campaign as far as I've played was pretty easy. I usually load up on resource gatherers, but that's because I can't ever keep enough resources to do anything otherwise (and even then it's touch and go). I'll have to try the hit-and-fades; I usually hope to take them out in one giant swoop, but this would probably be effective too. So what's a good way to do Terran defences because the bunkers aren't much good without marines, and your army isn't much good if you're diverting everybody into bunkers, ad I have yet to find a balance.

Just finished playing CnC3 online for the first time. I thought I was doing decently, but the other guy went for broke and built the largest unit immediately and swarmed me. Watching the replay though, I have an idea or two next time I'm on that map. I feel bad though because I accidentally voted 0 stars for both skill and sportsmanship on him, and he did a good job and seemed pretty nice. Hopefully I didn't effect his standing too much.

 

[Unicron]

Lindley speaks the truth. BW is definitely more challenging as an expansion, and relies on familiarity with the game tactics. Basic StarCraft is a bit better in leveling up the difficulty progressively.