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Romulus & Vulcan

James Wright

Commodore
Commodore
How far apart distance wise are Romulus and Vulcan?
Watching the several episodes of TNG where the Romulans try to invade Vulcan it appears that Vulcan is situated just across the neutral zone.
Thank You!

James
 
You know what I don't get? The Romulans pretty clearly knew where they were going (apparently, archaic Vulcan actually funded their SIM PlanetQuest), and hence had the ability to map planetary systems from afar, so why choose Romulus, more than forty LY away?

Earth sure is a lot closer, and comes prestocked with slaves. :)

In seriousness, I wonder what the travel time between Vulcan and Romulus was. Most of the comments made in the show imply a sublight venture (indications of FTL travel come from Voyager, which are better off ignored or interpreted to mean something very different than what they probably intended). When did they make planetfall? The answer would have wide-ranging implications about the size of the population of the RSE, and the actual efficacy of Surakian philosophy versus those exiled, based on objective technological measurements and standard of living.
 
I doubt they're very far apart. The NZ is pretty close to core Fed space and worlds like Earth, since the Rommies used early warp ships to leave Vulcan and the Romulan Wars were fought before there was a Federation.
 
There are many arguments for these two planets being close to each other:

- Ease of access from Romulus to Vulcan in "Unification"
- Ease of access from RNZ to Earth in ST:FC (combined with ease of access from Vulcan to Earth as established elsewhere)
- The general rationale of Romulus being a colony of Vulcan
- Seeming proximity of Romulus to Earth in "Minefield", "The Aenar" and in the supposed Romulan War

However, there are also counterarguments:

- RNZ is far away from Earthly help in "Balance of Terror" and "Enterprise Incident"
- RNZ is far away from Earthly help in "The Enemy", "The Defector" and umpteen other TNG era stories
- Vulcan seems to remain unaware of Romulus until "Balance of Terror"

Here, we probably have to differentiate between "Romulus" and "Romulan space". The latter may be quite large, and the RNZ may extend far away from Romulus, Vulcan and Earth. Similarly, we may have to differentiate between "Vulcan" and "Vulcan space". It may be that the ships in "Unification" only entered Vulcan space within the UFP but did not quite plunge into the Vulcan home system immediately after passing through the RNZ.

You know what I don't get? The Romulans pretty clearly knew where they were going (apparently, archaic Vulcan actually funded their SIM PlanetQuest), and hence had the ability to map planetary systems from afar, so why choose Romulus, more than forty LY away? Earth sure is a lot closer, and comes prestocked with slaves. :)

One might say they chose a planet that resembled Vulcan... There are indications that Vulcan might have a twin planet, similar to Remus (since it visibly has big spherical objects on the sky but supposedly has no moon), and it's possible that such a setup would be found advantageous by the Romulan emigrants. Indeed, today many believe that only twin planets can bear life as we know it (and that Earth is a borderline case on that because we have a suitably large Moon helping us out)! The early Romulans may have been thinking on similar lines.

Also, I doubt their mapping skills. What evidence do we have that they knew where they were going? Supposedly, they wandered from planet to planet, leaving behind e.g. the Debrune, Calder, Yadalla or Dessica ruins...

In seriousness, I wonder what the travel time between Vulcan and Romulus was. Most of the comments made in the show imply a sublight venture (indications of FTL travel come from Voyager, which are better off ignored or interpreted to mean something very different than what they probably intended).

What comments? Vulcans were founding interstellar monasteries a thousand years before the supposed schism. Doesn't sound like a sublight job to me. And if Vulcans had that capability, it doesn't make much sense for the Romulan emigrants to lack it. If they left at sublight, Vulcan warpships would no doubt have kept track.

When did they make planetfall? The answer would have wide-ranging implications about the size of the population of the RSE, and the actual efficacy of Surakian philosophy versus those exiled, based on objective technological measurements and standard of living.

Well, all the worlds in "Gambit" were said to be Romulan offshoots, not Vulcan ones, supposedly thus from time after the initial bunch made planetfall and started calling themselves Romulans. Suggests good interstellar reach.

Unless, of course, we're misunderstanding and these people were Romulans first, and then departed Vulcan. It's quite possible that a group named Romulans existed on the surface of Vulcan since ancient times (thus explaining the Q mentioning a 100-year-long Vulcan-Romulan war in VOY, when there isn't really room for one after the departure of the Romulans from Vulcan).

Timo Saloniemi
 
That map is in 2-D, it's fully possible that in 3-D there is a common border between the two somewhere "Over" or "under" that map.
 
...the Romulan-Cardassian border established on DS9.

Umm, what Romulan-Cardassian border?

When Romulans visited DS9, there was no indication they were anywhere near their home turf. When they visited Cardassia, they did so in the van of an invasion fleet that was coming from the direction of neutral space, around Bajor.

They only time there was the remotest hint that Cardassian space might be close to DS9 was "Birthright", where a relatively small craft was able to propel Worf from DS9 to the prison camp planet at the Romulan border. But even that episode gave no hint that there'd be a border between Cardassia and Romulus.

The only border that Cardassia was established to have was against the Federation, at the Demilitarized Zone. There presumably was one against Bajor, too, considering Bajor and Cardassia Prime were depicted as neighboring systems. And there was a temporary border against the Klingons when the latter occupied Cardassian planets after "Way of the Warrior". But for example a border against the Breen was never established - only territorial disputes with them.

Timo Saloniemi
 
That map is in 2-D, it's fully possible that in 3-D there is a common border between the two somewhere "Over" or "under" that map.

These 2-D maps that are created for the Star Trek universe always make me laugh. One can simply orient themselves such that from their 2-D perspective of 3-D Federation / Romulan space, Vulcan and Romulus appear to be very close and create that 2-D map when in reality they are very far apart.
 
The main thing that I never understood was the physical difference between Romulans and Vulcans mainly the brow ridge? Was this self inficted by the Romulans because it doesn't seem like enough time for such a big evalution.
 
The main thing that I never understood was the physical difference between Romulans and Vulcans mainly the brow ridge? Was this self inficted by the Romulans because it doesn't seem like enough time for such a big evalution.

Perhaps it was the "Northern Vulcans" and the "Southern Vulcans" ;)
 
The main thing that I never understood was the physical difference between Romulans and Vulcans mainly the brow ridge? Was this self inficted by the Romulans because it doesn't seem like enough time for such a big evalution.
This has always bothered me, too. The Klingons were changed for the TOS movies to make them look more menacing and non-human. The Romulans were apparently changed just because TPTB wanted to do it.
There is no other given reason for the Rommie brow ridge except to make them look different from Vulcans. Later story lines about Romulans and Vulcans (in TNG era) being related do not make much sense since they look so different.
 
Why not? Quite possibly the Romulans were driven out of Vulcan because of racist motivations: "Ridgeheads begone!"...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, it explains the antagonism and wanting to be free of the Neutral Zone.

I'm surprised at how small the Cardassian Union is and how freaking close Cardassia is to the DMZ.
 
What a fucking dumb map. The USF has territory all the way around the Romulan Empire?
The European Union surrounds Switzerland, and the Swiss didn't even lose a major war to the EU.

Besides, it doesn't completely surround it. There's a corridor of territory extending "east"--the RNZ has a hole, which is sensible, since bottling without crippling or destroying an expansionist, antagonistic sovereign would be foolhardly.

GalaxyClass1701 said:
The main thing that I never understood was the physical difference between Romulans and Vulcans mainly the brow ridge? Was this self inficted by the Romulans because it doesn't seem like enough time for such a big evalution.

I'll be the first to agree that it's really lame, but I like to think of the Romulan ridges (and the Remans' total skeletal disfigurement) as a result of moving from a world with significantly more UV radiation reaching the surface than Romulus, and in the absence of dietary supplements or sunlamps Romulans tend to wind up with vitamin deficiencies that make their skeletons look stupid.

Tuvok would be totally screwed.

It's also possible to just totally ignore it as a persistent VFX error, since no one ever mentions it, and, as of Star Trek 11, they're gone.

Timo said:
One might say they chose a planet that resembled Vulcan... There are indications that Vulcan might have a twin planet, similar to Remus (since it visibly has big spherical objects on the sky but supposedly has no moon), and it's possible that such a setup would be found advantageous by the Romulan emigrants. Indeed, today many believe that only twin planets can bear life as we know it (and that Earth is a borderline case on that because we have a suitably large Moon helping us out)! The early Romulans may have been thinking on similar lines.

Remus isn't a twin planet. It's tidally locked with its sun, not Romulus. Romulus does presumably have a moon, or is something else's moon, however, for the reason you've noted.

I do rather like the idea, too, of taking Spock's "Vulcan has no moon" comment as comically literal, and interpreting Vulcan itself as the "moon" in essentially a double-planet system with the barycenter actually in the twin, making Vulcan its moon. In this regard, I don't know why they went to the trouble of changing the TMP background, when the line that bothers the grognards is actually probably even cleverer with a bit of imagination.

All that said, I can get on board the notion that Earth might be generally too cold and uninviting, or possibly atmospherically incorrect in some way (too much oxygen, not enough H2S, too much ozone, whatever). Alternatively, it's certainly not impossible that the original Romulans were a smaller group than generally assumed, and really had no desire to deal with enslaving or exterminating a sapient population, no matter how primitive, that outnumbered theirs by orders of magnitude. If we assume early 21st-century technology levels for the Rommies, even a group of 50,000 armed with firearms, aircraft, and nukes might have a difficult time with the, what, 400 million or so humans of the early A's D, some of whom live in strong, centralized, technologically-savvy civilizations themselves...

On the other hand, Romulus looks just like Earth, at least when you compared the two planets to Arraki--er, Vulcan.

Also, I doubt their mapping skills.
Why? We're close to imaging terrestrial planets with sufficient resolution to determine atmospheric composition, and finding at least potentially habitable worlds--a civilization that has thermonuclear and (however primitive) interstellar transportation could be reasonably presumed to have such capabilities, or the ability to develop such capabilities in short order when it would be useful--like, when you want to move a few thousand to a few billion people to a new planet. Besides, the capital involved in developing technology to investigate nearby terrestrial planets is going to be much less than the capital involved in building an ark ship to go there. And if they have FTL capabilities, we'd expect them to have at least the technology we'll have in a few years.

What evidence do we have that they knew where they were going? Supposedly, they wandered from planet to planet, leaving behind e.g. the Debrune, Calder, Yadalla or Dessica ruins...
The fact that Vulcans didn't overrun the Alpha Quadrant strongly militates relenetlessly against the Vulcans possessing FTL in the time of Surak. Even if FTL Vulcans wouldn't take over the AQ, FTL Romulans presumably would. Offshoots of Vulcan/Romulan culture on other planets would only necessarily indicate that Vulcans or Romulans went there and established enclaves--it's never been established, and can indeed be argued to be much less likely, that the group of exiles/explorers/colonists, which we ordinarily identify as "Romulans" are one monolithic group that left all at once, and were united in going to one particular planet.

And if they did have STL-only technology, the idea that they would go somewhere it took decades or centuries to get to without knowing what was there is bonkers. A blind trip to an alien star system is almost bound to be a death sentence, even in Star Trek terms. I suppose it's conceivable, if they were capable of refuelling H-2 or He-3 from known gas giants (unless they couldn't map those either, and archaic Vulcans are actually stupider than present-day humans), but how many people would sign up to wander around aimlessly with no known destination? This isn't Sinai, it's space.

(That said, the same question may be leveled squarely at the Augments.)

What comments? Vulcans were founding interstellar monasteries a thousand years before the supposed schism. Doesn't sound like a sublight job to me. And if Vulcans had that capability, it doesn't make much sense for the Romulan emigrants to lack it. If they left at sublight, Vulcan warpships would no doubt have kept track.
It's been a while since I've seen that episode, but if possible, I'd like to interpret the P'Jem monastery's "founding" to be that of the specific order, which may be arbitrarily ancient, and not of the small colony the physical monastery sits on. If this isn't reasonable, then I interpret Enterprise to be a holodeck program rife with historical inaccuracies.:p
 
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...the Romulan-Cardassian border established on DS9.
Umm, what Romulan-Cardassian border?

When Romulans visited DS9, there was no indication they were anywhere near their home turf. When they visited Cardassia, they did so in the van of an invasion fleet that was coming from the direction of neutral space, around Bajor.

They only time there was the remotest hint that Cardassian space might be close to DS9 was "Birthright", where a relatively small craft was able to propel Worf from DS9 to the prison camp planet at the Romulan border. But even that episode gave no hint that there'd be a border between Cardassia and Romulus.

The only border that Cardassia was established to have was against the Federation, at the Demilitarized Zone. There presumably was one against Bajor, too, considering Bajor and Cardassia Prime were depicted as neighboring systems. And there was a temporary border against the Klingons when the latter occupied Cardassian planets after "Way of the Warrior". But for example a border against the Breen was never established - only territorial disputes with them.

Timo Saloniemi

The Romulan-Cardassian border was established in "Improbable Cause" when Odo meets with his mysterious contact in the Cardassian government.

Mysterious Cardassian: "There's been a great deal of unusual Romulan activity these past weeks. Cloaked ships believed to be Warbirds have been detected near the Cardassian border. Troop movements. Communication activity."
Odo: "Sounds like their preparing for an invasion."
Mysterious Cardassian: "It has occured to us, and we're ready for it if it should happen."
Of course, what the Cardassians were detecting was the Tal Shiar preparing for its attack on the Founders' home planet. However, I doubt the Tal Shiar would prepare for this type of operation in non-Romulan space (it would be far less secure and present massive security problems). Also, how could the Romulans have troop movements near the Cardassain border if the two states didn't share that border.

The Romulan-Cardassain border was further referenced in "In the Pale Moonlight."

Bashir: "Do you know what happened to the Cairo?"
Sisko: "Just that she disappeared on patrol in the Romulan Neutral Zone. I'll look into it."
Dax: "Don't bother! I'm sure it's the same old story. The Jem'Hadar crossed the Romulan border and caught them by surprise. It's only about the hundredth time its happened!
Bashir: "I can't believe the Romulans allow them to violate their terrority so brazenly. Why do they get away with it?"
Sisko: "The Romulans have a treaty of non-aggression and friendship with the Dominion. So they're willing to turn a blind eye to almost anything in the name of friendship."
So, the Jem'Hadar are leaving Dominion controlled space, entering Romulan space, then entering the Neutral Zone to attack Federation ships. They wouldn't be able to do that if the Romulans and Cardassians didn't share a common border.
 
Besides, it doesn't completely surround it. There's a corridor of territory extending "east"--the RNZ has a hole, which is sensible, since bottling without crippling or destroying an expansionist, antagonistic sovereign would be foolhardly.

I'd rather think that the first clash between the Earthlings and the Romulans led to the creation of a border arrangement that was unsustainable in practice. At first, the idea might have been to isolate the Romulans from the rest of the universe, as Spock describes the RNZ in those terms in "Balance of Terror". This would be a bit akin to Spain and Portugal dividing the entire Earth between themselves in the 1500s. Sooner or later, Romulans would expand out of their border commitments - but the Feds would also begin to expand, and would gradually englobe the Romulans when they originally had merely bordered on the RNZ from one side. Naturally, this would lead into increasing clashes a hundred years after the original war, let alone two hundred years after it.

Remus isn't a twin planet. It's tidally locked with its sun, not Romulus. Romulus does presumably have a moon, or is something else's moon, however, for the reason you've noted.

I'd rather argue that both Romulus and Vulcan have a situation as described in Data's ST:NEM graphic: there is a smaller companion planet that orbits the local star at an orbit that nearly matches that of the mother planet, resulting in close passes every few years. Such passes would help explain the supposed volcanism on Vulcan, even if the planet is so dead inside that one can drill a shaft right through and insert a robot that delivers a black hole. Volcanism might also be prevalent on Romulus, with its famed Firefalls.

The occasionally passing companion planet might feature moons of its own, in a more or less unstable arrangement. In the case of Vulcan, TMP would suggest it does; in the case of Romulus, ST:NEM suggests it doesn't.

Alternatively, it's certainly not impossible that the original Romulans were a smaller group than generally assumed, and really had no desire to deal with enslaving or exterminating a sapient population, no matter how primitive, that outnumbered theirs by orders of magnitude.

Or then the interstellar environment is the key factor. Diane Duane's books describe an exodus where the ships carrying the sizeable emigrant population were constantly threatened by outside forces, or by shortage of resources exacerbated by difficulties in finding safe havens for resupply. It might be that sending a scoutship to Earth would be a breeze - but moving a billion people there would be flat out impossible, because of the nature of the "terrain" in between.

Why? We're close to imaging terrestrial planets with sufficient resolution to determine atmospheric composition, and finding at least potentially habitable worlds

Yet in the Trek environment, this might not be sufficient information. Remote data like this might not establish whether a stretch of space is traversible, in terms of resources and resistance.

In the Trek reality, one probably isn't hard pressed to locate Class M worlds. Indeed, those might well be the norm - ancient civilizations would already have terraformed everything to their liking, and Trek civilizations are biologically alike for various reasons so naturally inclined to terraform to the same standard. The opposite problem might arise: everything is suitable for colonization, so everything is already taken to some degree, and one has to find the niches where the hold of the preceding landlords isn't quite as tight as elsewhere. Finding a (temporarily?) fallow world might not be sufficient if there are expansionist neighbors just one star system over. And mapping something like that might not be possible without actually going there.

Whether the Romulans could have afforded to send advance scouts is not necessarily a matter of economics. The whole kit and kaboodle might have been under pressure to depart immediately or face extinction ("soft" cultural death or "hard" massacre in the hands of Surakists), in rickety ships that wouldn't let them loiter for long. Preplanning and preparations might have been impossible; making it up on the (warp) fly might have been the only way to proceed.

A blind trip to an alien star system is almost bound to be a death sentence, even in Star Trek terms.

Yet it's difficult to imagine why anybody would begin an interstellar exodus unless something worse than an "almost death sentence" was driving them.

The fact that Vulcans didn't overrun the Alpha Quadrant strongly militates relenetlessly against the Vulcans possessing FTL in the time of Surak.

Does it? Perhaps the discovery of interstellar expansion was the very fact that brought the internecine wars to a peak and then to a corresponding halt. If an old-style Vulcan (i.e. a raving lunatic as embodied by Nero) got access to an early starship, his first ambition wouldn't be to found a colony far away from the homeworld: it would more likely be to found an offworld base from which to smite his old enemies.

Incidentally...

(That said, the same question may be leveled squarely at the Augments.)

Nobody really said that Khan intended to go out to space to found an extraterrestrial utopia. Or that he intended to sleep for 200 years. Remember his first question at wakey-wakey? It almost sounds as if his plan all along had involved him being waken up by fellow humans from the gullible future, helping him out in his triumphant return to Earth... Or then that was his Plan B if the original idea of looping back failed due to a technical malfunction in his primitive ship.

The Romulan-Cardassian border was established in "Improbable Cause" when Odo meets with his mysterious contact in the Cardassian government.

Naah. The Cardassian border was established there. There was no mention what, if anything, that border was, well, bordering.

However, I doubt the Tal Shiar would prepare for this type of operation in non-Romulan space (it would be far less secure and present massive security problems).

Yet its Cardassian counterpart had done the very thing, isolating itself from Cardassia proper and hiding in a remote system.

The Romulan-Cardassain border was further referenced in "In the Pale Moonlight."

No, this time it was the Romulan border - no mention of Cardassia anywhere.

So, the Jem'Hadar are leaving Dominion controlled space, entering Romulan space, then entering the Neutral Zone to attack Federation ships. They wouldn't be able to do that if the Romulans and Cardassians didn't share a common border.

It was wartime. Nothing would limit the Dominion to operating within Cardassian borders; indeed, the very definition of the war was that the Dominion was operating beyond those. And the fact that there was a Dominion presence at the RNZ was a rude surprise to the Alpha Axis. That would hardly be the case if the RNZ was already close to the main front of the war (assuming one existed).

Really, the absence of a Cardassian-Romulan border in that map is due to two reasons:

1) There are no borders there that aren't explicitly required by onscreen evidence. Most Trek conflicts don't require the existence of a border, but happen in the lawless outback where there are few witnesses.
2) The Dominion War region is based as faithfully as possible on the onscreen maps on DS9 War Room wall displays, depicting Cardassian expansion along the lower edge towards the right where a Romulan symbol ultimately appears. Such a development works best if the Romulans aren't initially in touch with Cardassia. And indeed any mention of prewar contact between the two cultures is described in terms of being a surprise to our heroes (Romulan technology found on Terok Nor in "Dax", Romulan scheming extending to Cardassia in "Improbable Cause").


Timo Saloniemi
 
that map definitely needs to be updated after the destruction of Romulus in the new movie.


I always liked seeing all the major homeworlds in the series and the movies --Romulus, Vulcan, Qnos, Cardassia, etc.
It just enriched the entire story of Trek to get to see the other homeworlds from time to time. I wish Romulus hadn't been destroyed.


and...it really changes the story and context of the Prime Timeline.


if and when they have the next tv series (and assuming they'll set it in the prime timeline) the AQ will be a much different place -- Romulans scattered across the galaxy w/ no homeworld, a power vacuum created by the collapse of the RSE...
 
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