Romulus - The original Homeworld of the Vulcan Species?

[Kor]

Marketing is an, um, interesting thing. I remember there were plenty of toys and kids' marketing around Terminator 2: Judgment Day and the original RoboCop. Maybe the Alien sequels too, but I can't recall exactly.

But back to the topic of this thread... Someone raised the question of whether Romulan foreheads have ever been addressed in-universe. The answer is no, they haven't.

Kor

 

[Christopher]

Marketing is an, um, interesting thing. I remember there were plenty of toys and kids' marketing around Terminator 2: Judgment Day and the original RoboCop. Maybe the Alien sequels too, but I can't recall exactly.

But that was after the success of Star Wars, when every genre movie was trying to copy its merchandising juggernaut. And so movies that weren't intended for kids tried to copy the marketing of a film that overtly was intended for all ages. After all, most of the films you're talking about were R-rated, while Star Wars was PG. They're not equivalent. You're talking about exceptions, no the norm. The abortive Alien toy line is universally recognized as an inappropriate idea. Nobody has ever thought that about Star Wars toys.

Again -- I was there at the time. I watched this evolve as it happened. When I saw a mother bring her small child to see RoboCop 2, it was self-evident that she hadn't done her homework about what kind of movie it was. But there have always been tons of kids in the audience at Star Wars movies, including me, my sister, and our contemporaries.

I mean, hell, a large part of the reason so many people in the '80s expected every sci-fi movie to be a kid-friendly adventure is because that's what Star Wars was, and the runaway success of Star Wars colored how the entire genre was perceived from that point on.

 

[BillJ]

It's all canon. Especially the cheese.

Sure, for Christopher, who has to follow the terms of his contract. For a fan who is into ST for enjoyment and not a paycheck, there is no reason to countenance such cringeworthy crap. Why should I struggle to overcome the stupidity of Threshhold or TFF when I have the freedom to ignore them?

This is an attitude the licensors must support. It would cost them dollars if, say, Star Wars fans were forced to accept the prequels with equal standing to the originals in their hearts, killing their desire for Star Wars merchandise the way Anakin killed those kids.

No one's saying it's not canon. But there's no requirement for a fan to acknowledge all canon, and there's no need for that to be any sort of "warring factions" type thing; just means that different people like different things. If you want to ignore what you don't like and pay attention to what you do like, what's the big deal? Two people that have different preferences towards what to pay attention to in Trek and what not to pay attention to can still be friendly about their Trek interest, doesn't have to become some kind of fight.

Humor. It is a difficult concept.

 

[Avro Arrow]

When I stated that I pretend some fictional event didn't exist (because it was awful), the response was "it's canon," as if I were fanning wrong.

 

[Kor]

Excellent points, Christopher.

I think the perception/expectation of sci-fi as a kids' genre has persisted for a very long time, despite more serious, cerebral works on one hand, and on the other hand more horror or thriller-oriented stuff, as well as various cult movies with quite adult themes (i.e. Roger Corman ).

Kor

 

[Idran]

I think that perception's held among a not-insignificant number of people for a lot of forms of escapist media. Heck, I've met one person that said he never took in any kind of fiction (books, TV, movies) because enjoying fictional works of any sort was a sign of immaturity as it wasn't "the real world" and so it was pointless to care about or consider.

Granted, that's an extreme version, but yeah, the general category is an unfortunate perception among many.

 

[Christopher]

I think that perception's held among a not-insignificant number of people for a lot of forms of escapist media. Heck, I've met one person that said he never took in any kind of fiction (books, TV, movies) because enjoying fictional works of any sort was a sign of immaturity as it wasn't "the real world" and so it was pointless to care about or consider.

Only immature people are self-conscious about proving how mature they are. Or, as the Fourth Doctor said, "There's no point in being grown-up if you can't be childish sometimes."

 

[JD]

If you're talking about The Clone Wars and Rebels, they are very much part of the Star Wars canon. Just because their animated doesn't mean they're directed at kids, they're pretty much on the same level as the movies. Rebels is pretty light, but by the end TCW got surprisingly dark and fairly violent.

Umm... The movies are directed at kids. All of Star Wars is directed at kids and always has been. The whole thing is George Lucas's homage to the adventure serials he grew up with as a kid, and those serials were directed at kids. There's nothing wrong with fiction being directed at kids, and no reason it can't be enjoyed by adults too.

I was having trouble wording the point I was trying to get across there. I know they are very kid friendly, but I just meant that they weren't targeted solely at kids. It just seemed to me that the poster I was responding to was blowing off the animated series as just kiddie stuff, and I thought they were more mature than that.

 

[BillJ]

All of Star Wars is directed at kids and always has been.

I just watched Darth Maul behead the head of one of the crime syndicates just a couple hours ago in The Clone Wars. So I'm not sure that I agree with this assessment.

 

[Christopher]

I was having trouble wording the point I was trying to get across there. I know they are very kid friendly, but I just meant that they weren't targeted solely at kids. It just seemed to me that the poster I was responding to was blowing off the animated series as just kiddie stuff, and I thought they were more mature than that.

Well, "kid stuff" is an ambiguous expression. Something aimed at 7-year-olds is going to be quite different from something aimed at 14-year-olds. Often the only difference between something aimed at teens and something aimed at adults is whether it has cuss words and onscreen bloodshed and sex, and a story can be perfectly mature without those. So a lot of teen-oriented productions have a lot of appeal for adults, like Batman: The Animated Series, The Legend of Korra, or, yes, Star Wars.

Star Wars has always been meant for family viewing, the kind of thing that's kid-friendly but can be fun escapism for adults. Some bits have been more kid-oriented, like the Ewok TV movies and the Droids and Ewoks cartoons, or like The Phantom Menace. But there has never been an incarnation of Star Wars that was aimed exclusively at adults. There's never been an R-rated Star Wars movie or an HBO series with cursing and nudity.

If anything, I'd say The Clone Wars was often more adult than the live-action movies -- or certainly more intelligent and sophisticated, which isn't necessarily the same thing. (Though it could be pretty dumb sometimes too.) But Rebels is younger-skewing by design, since it's under the Disney aegis now. Not as young-skewing as the Ewok movies, say, but still aimed younger than TCW, and maybe a bit younger than most of the movies.

 

[BillJ]

I never really saw Star Wars as kiddie-fair the first time I watched Darth Vader choke the shit out of someone.

Much like Trek, it is of its time.

 

[Therin of Andor]

What is the preferred explanation for the prevalence of Romulan forehead ridges in the TNG era?

We know that Spock passed unmolested, and unrecognized as a Vulcan, for many years leading up to the episode "Unification". We know that Spock first met the ridged Pardek offscreen during the events surrounding ST VI. So the two types always co-existed. Most likely we saw more of one type when that group was in power?

Mintakens and Remans also have ridges.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Again -- I was there at the time. I watched this evolve as it happened. When I saw a mother bring her small child to see RoboCop 2, it was self-evident that she hadn't done her homework about what kind of movie it was.

Indeed. Similarly "Batman Returns", with cute penguins coughing up black blood - but they were also available as toys from the fast food restaurants.

 

[uniderth]

Unlike the Klingons there aren't any cases that I'm aware of were a character reappeared later with ridges. But I could be mistaken.

 

[Christopher]

Unlike the Klingons there aren't any cases that I'm aware of were a character reappeared later with ridges. But I could be mistaken.

Nope, no Romulan characters in common between TOS and TNG etc.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Unlike the Klingons there aren't any cases that I'm aware of were a character reappeared later with ridges.

Exactly. Fans expected Caithlin Dar, in ST V, to have TNG ridges, but Shatner chose not to use that makeup style.

Spock's meeting with Pardek in ST VI was offscreen, and we assume that he had his ridges throughout his life, even though Nanclus had no ridges.

Spock choosing not to disguise himself with ridges (unlike Data and Picard, who did) in TNG suggests that Romulan ridges were not such a big deal.

 

[Christopher]

Spock's meeting with Pardek in ST VI was offscreen...

More precisely, there was no mention of Pardek in ST VI at all; it was "Unification" that established Pardek's presence at the Khitomer Conference. I'd call it a retcon, except that the episode aired three months before the film came out. But the movie would've been written and filmed well before the episode was written, so it was retroactive in that sense. (Same sort of thing as when Agents of SHIELD sets up a plot point from an upcoming Marvel movie.)

 

[Kor]

It was Sarek's speculation that Spock and Pardek met at the Khitomer Conference.

Sarek said, "He is a Romulan Senator. Spock has maintained a relationship with him over the years. I don't know how they met. At the Khitomer Conference, I'd imagine."

Kor

 

[Timo]

Yes, there's some ambiguity involved. Even if Sarek is correct with his speculation, we then have to ask what this "Khitomer Conference" is. The summit of ST6, where the role and indeed presence of Romulans was unclear to say the least? Something that happened later, but before the Klingons took over the place? Something that happened still later, after the Romulans (re?)took the place?

Yet Pardek explicitly says he has been friends with Spock for eighty years. So it does seem we can take Sarek's speculation as a very good approximation of the truth!

Timo Saloniemi