Riker's Age and Career Path

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai

    Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    How Riker is treated has always confused me. I can't really be sure of how much we know about him and how much is conjecture.

    Here's what we think we know; the first time we meet Riker, he's 29 years old and has had an exemplary career. Part of that included being the leader of a security detail on Betazed, serving on the USS Potemkin and being first officer to Captain DeSoto on the USS Hood. After his tour on the Hood, he was offered command of the USS Drake, which he turned down for the opportunity to serve on the Federation's flagship.

    We know that just over a year later, he was again offered a command, this time the USS Ares, which he also turned down. Just over another year, and he was offered command of the USS Melbourne, which he again turned down. That's three captaincies offered to him before age 35. The point is repeatedly driven home that Riker is beyond ready for the captain's chair and that Starfleet has expectations of a man in his position.

    It's not that he's so exemplary that offers are coming his way that would not be coming to someone else his age and with his record. He was roughly of an age with Paul Rice, who was the second choice to captain the Drake, and took it. He was also the same age as Donald Varley, who commanded the USS Lantree. Clearly men Riker's age, with the same record and career trajectory, were considered the right age to command their own ships.

    The right age being...late 20's, apparently. What?

    Now, we don't really know how old Riker was. We just think we do, because in "The Icarus Factor", Riker states that his father walked out on him at age 15 and that this episode takes place 15 years later. So, Riker's 30, according to that script.

    Here's the problem: 30 is an absurdly young age for Riker to be at a point where Starfleet has become concerned that he seems unwilling to advance to the captain's chair. At age 30 he should, at best, be just at a point where he's ready to be a first officer, unless he's an exceptional officer who moved through the ranks at breakneck speed, proving himself overqualified at every position along the way, and we know that while he's exemplary, he's not that exceptional. Not only do we know of two captains his age, we also observe that not once does Picard or anyone else act as if Riker is uncommonly young to be so far in his career.

    Now, I know that Picard apparently was promoted to captain while still in his mid-twenties, but the situation there was indeed exceptional, as he showed uncommon ability to command in a high-pressure situation after all the officers senior to him were killed. Kirk was probably around 31-33 when he gained his first command, depending on when the mission began vs. when the show began (he's stated to be 34 in "The Deadly Years"), but the general feeling of Kirk was that he was uncommonly young. Spock was apparently older than he, and yet still only a commander (or maybe lieutenant commander) at the start of the mission, and all the captains Kirk met in the series were visibly his senior by at least a decade, often more.

    It often seems to me that the writers were writing Riker's character as though he were the same age Jonathan Frakes himself was. I almost wonder if they really understood that the dialogue in "The Icarus Factor" made him 30. One wonders if it wasn't just a mistake that while writing, they forgot that Riker was abandoned at age 15, not that he was abandoned 15 years ago. After all, he's never treated as if he's merely 30, and in a time when living past 100 and still being hale and hearty is not uncommon, 30 is practically a child.

    Frakes was 35 during TNG's first season, and thus, in "The Best of Both Worlds" he would have been 38. If Riker was, at that point, also 38, a lot more would make sense, both in terms of how many years he'd been an active officer and the idea that he'd been offered three commands and it was becoming a concern that he kept turning them down. At age 38, an upwardly mobile command officer would have every reason to wonder "what am I still doing here?" and be upbraided by a younger officer for standing in her way.

    At age 31 or 32? Not so much. We saw umpteen other officers that age and older who were still lieutenants, lieutenant commanders, et al, even while on the command track. Worf was well into his 30's by the time he got to DS9, even if one accepts that he was apparently a mere 24 during the first season of TNG. Hell, Sisko had to be over 40 when he was assigned to DS9, which would have made him 37 and a lieutenant commander during his time on the Saratoga. Jadzia Dax was 34 when she died, and had command experience during a war. There's no frickin' way she wouldn't at least be someone's first officer already, and it's clear that no one thinks it's odd that at her age she didn't already have her own command.
     
    Six of Twelve and Qonundrum like this.
  2. psCargile

    psCargile Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Location:
    GA
    A quick internet search of average age of Navy captains gives results of persons being in their forties. Thirties would be about right for first officers. Given Trek is in the future where people have more general knowledge and greater skills aptitude, I'd knock of about ten years for typical Starfleet advancement. Granted, not everyone is going to join at 18 years old.
     
  3. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I don't know TOS that well but wasn't it said that Kirk was the youngest person to be made captain? Was it said how old he was?

    So if someone joins the academy out of high school at 18, spends 4 years there and then gets a posting as an ensign at the age of about 22....8 years later he's turning down offers to be a captain. That seems very fast.
     
  4. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    Location:
    Mississauga
    I dunno but NuKirk was 25 (granted, that was under extreme circumstances originally)

    That's assuming an event(s) doesn't happen in between that time which allows said individual to display their extraordinary abilities.
     
  5. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    My mansion on Qo'noS
    24th-century humans are obviously a lot more intelligent and educated than people today. There should be more ships run by twelve-year-old supergeniuses.

    Kor
     
  6. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Location:
    New Jersey
    that happened on DS9...didn't work out so well
     
  7. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    Location:
    Mississauga
    They have the knowledge, but do they have the wisdom to apply it, or the emotional maturity to handle trauma?

    Granted, if said genius is a joined Trill whose symbiont has significant mileage or a Vulcan who carries the katra of an admiral ancestor, by all means, take command, sir.
     
  8. Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai

    Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    As I said, "The Deadly Years" has Kirk say he's 34. For some reason, Vonda McIntyre decided in the novel Enterprise: The First Adventure to make him 29 when he took command of the Enterprise and the youngest captain Starfleet had ever had. I recently re-watched all of Star Trek (well, I'm nearly done, but I have already watched all TOS and the films) and Kirk is not once stated to be the youngest ever. He does appear to be younger than average, however.

    Picard, however, just about had to be the youngest ever. His age has never been directly stated, but let's consider that he knew from a young age he wanted to join Starfleet, he would have done so at his earliest opportunity, which would be at age 16, one assumes from watching "Coming of Age". This means he would have actually entered Starfleet at age 17, in 2322. Common knowledge is that he was born in 2305 and didn't enter the Academy until he was 18. We don't know this, though; all we have is the Chronology. Let's assume it, because otherwise he's crazy young. This makes him 28 when he takes over the Stargazer command after the death of the captain and first officer.

    Yeah, far too fast.
     
  9. matthunter

    matthunter Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Location:
    Great Britain
    Riker is offered ships early, true, but what sort of ships? He's of an age with the Captain of the Lantree... a supply ship based on a hundred-year old design. Wasn't the Drake a scout ship of some sort? Starfleet is recognising an up-and-comer, but with command of smaller ships until he's proved his worth (I think the biggest ship he's offered in the end is an Excelsior). For that matter, Picard's early promotion is to command of a ship that appears to be a Kirk-era contemporary. Whereas a true leap was Kirk getting command of the most powerful type of ship in the fleet. A similar progression would have had Riker being offered an Ambassador-Class ship or an Excelsior as his first choice.
     
    Six of Twelve likes this.
  10. Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai

    Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    Yes, but the problem is, Starfleet is offering him captaincies at an age when most command-track officers would, at best, be starting out as a first officer somewhere, or maybe running a supply station or something. And on top of that, the fact that he keeps turning it down means that it's reflecting poorly on him in the eyes of the Admiralty.

    Did they ever consider the fact that he was turning down commands because he felt he didn't have nearly enough experience yet? After all, assuming he graduated at age 22...seven years out from his first assignment ever and they're ready to offer him a command?
     
  11. GulBahana

    GulBahana Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 11, 2015
    That was kind of lame for the writers to have him turn down multiple commands. Frakes himself wasn't a fan of it.
     
    Longinus and psCargile like this.
  12. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Especially since he broke up with Deanna to concentrate on his career. If I was her I would be so hurt that after that he turned down every promotion offered.
     
  13. Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai

    Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    I didn't even mention Captain Janeway, who, if she's at all close to her character's age, was 40 when she got her first command. 40, and Riker's worried he might be hurting his career by not having accepted a command by age 30?

    Even if Janeway isn't fully 40 yet, she's clearly well over 30.
     
    Six of Twelve likes this.
  14. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Location:
    London
    The writers make Starfleet look like an organisation run by buffoons. This is what happens when you don't know whether you are just explorers running NASA Inc in space or sailors running the space Navy. If Picard was a captain in his 20s by the time TNG came along when he is 50 something, he should be an admiral.
     
    psCargile likes this.
  15. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    My mansion on Qo'noS
    Not everybody wants to be a desk-bound admiral.

    Kor
     
    Six of Twelve likes this.
  16. Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai

    Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    When James T. Kirk tells you "Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference."...you don't let them promote you.
     
    Kor likes this.
  17. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2013
    Location:
    Configuring the Ontarian Manifold
    In "Conspiracy", we learn that Tryla Scott was the new youngest captain ever:

    PICARD: Tryla Scott. It's said you made Captain faster than anyone in Starfleet history, present company included. Are you that good?
    TRYLA: Yes, I am.
    PICARD: Starfleet's finest. Fancy meeting you here.

    So, that must put her promotion in her mid-20s.
     
  18. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    My mansion on Qo'noS
    After many, many years of being a Captain, right when I was about ready to quit Starfleet for good, then I would finally accept promotion to admiral.

    And then I would promptly retire, so I would have an admiral's pension instead of a captain's.

    Kor
     
  19. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Location:
    London
    but but money does not exist!
     
    Longinus likes this.
  20. Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai

    Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    Except when it does.