Revisting Some Voyager Episodes...

[NIUPonyBoy]

I picked up the 'Fan Collective: Borg' at Walley-World for $10 a few weeks ago (now it's nearly $30). Anyway I've been slowly watching the 4 disks, clearly mostly VOY.

Personally the Borg surely seem kinda paper-tigerish in VOY, but that is besides the point.

The VOY crew does have more personality and comerority than ENT that followed it, despite that fact I like ENT better. However, VOY is not as bad as I remembered it, but the Borg sure seem 'different' and not nearly as scary and mean or single minded.

That is all beisde the point. What should I expect when watching ENDGAME? And the end of the series. I surely missed it when it was on TV like almost all of this series. lol

Watching VOY and ENT on an HD sure is more enjoyable than TOS and TNG to watch and DS9 is 50/50.

 

[Thestral]

My opinion? One of the greatest disservices Voyager contributed about to the Star Trek Universe is what they did to the Borg. As far as gutting species goes, only what DS9 (following TNG's lead) did to the Ferengi is comparable, and that at least has some comedy value and produced the brilliant Quark.

Paper tiger? Yeah, tissue paper tiger. Chakotay was right in Scorpion, and that two-parter should've ended with the whole crew either assimilated or 8472-diseased. I mean, for Pete's sake, One Cube (uno, eins, un, een, aon) wiped out an entire Federation Armada - 39 ships - at Wolf 359. Six years later, Janeway and co. are freewheeling through Borg space, blithely making deals with the Collective. They should've avoided the Borg, been constantly on the run, maybe luckily taken down a scout ship.

 

[Lynx]

The Borg were already ruined in TNG by the introduction of characters like Hugh and the Borg Queen. All what was exciting and scary with them, which we had seen in episodes like "Q Who" and "Best Of Both Worlds" was ruined when those characters were introducted and the Borg became just like any other hostile species which could be changed or manipulated. Voyager only continued what had started in TNG.

 

[Thestral]

The Borg were already ruined in TNG by the introduction of characters like Hugh and the Borg Queen. All what was exciting and scary with them, which we had seen in episodes like "Q Who" and "Best Of Both Worlds" was ruined when those characters were introducted and the Borg became just like any other hostile species which could be changed or manipulated. Voyager only continued what had started in TNG.

Characterwise, you're correct. Well, maybe not with Hugh, but definitely the Queen. That's not my biggest complaint though; I more object to the scaling down of the Borg. If a single cube can wreak such havoc (and again in First Contact against a fleet at least partly designed to fight them) then how can a single, relatively small Federation ship stand a chance against them?

 

[kes7]

Characterwise, you're correct. Well, maybe not with Hugh, but definitely the Queen. That's not my biggest complaint though; I more object to the scaling down of the Borg. If a single cube can wreak such havoc (and again in First Contact against a fleet at least partly designed to fight them) then how can a single, relatively small Federation ship stand a chance against them?

Because Seven and Janeway were the Borg Queen's pets, kind of like Picard and Janeway were Q's pets. I remember at least one occasion where drones spotted Voyager and were like "Oooh, there they are, let's assimilate them," and the Queen said "No, let's just watch them while I stand here looking creepily aroused."

Actually, now that I've said all that, I think maybe Q and the Borg Queen should have gotten together. They had a lot in common.

ETA: In TNG, the Borg had the element of surprise, plus all of Picard's knowledge. For most of VOY, they had a former drone (or six, including the kids) on board for insight, and were much more familiar with the Borg and knew what to expect. That alone could have helped them fare better.

 

[TedShatner10]

I don't think the Borg were genuinely ruined even if their later V'Ger stories were not very good, but they were always creatively inconsistant as villains as early as "The Best of Both Worlds", and their novelty as challenging antagonists was wearing off from First Contact onwards. I loved "Drone" though.

 

[KayArr]

Well, there's no such thing as an unbeatable enemy unless you want the end of Starfleet. And Janeway and crew beat them slowly over a few seasons plus some future years tacked on. So destroy away Voyager crew--take out those Borg!

 

[Lynx]

Characterwise, you're correct. Well, maybe not with Hugh, but definitely the Queen. That's not my biggest complaint though; I more object to the scaling down of the Borg. If a single cube can wreak such havoc (and again in First Contact against a fleet at least partly designed to fight them) then how can a single, relatively small Federation ship stand a chance against them?

Because Seven and Janeway were the Borg Queen's pets, kind of like Picard and Janeway were Q's pets. I remember at least one occasion where drones spotted Voyager and were like "Oooh, there they are, let's assimilate them," and the Queen said "No, let's just watch them while I stand here looking creepily aroused."

Actually, now that I've said all that, I think maybe Q and the Borg Queen should have gotten together. They had a lot in common.

ETA: In TNG, the Borg had the element of surprise, plus all of Picard's knowledge. For most of VOY, they had a former drone (or six, including the kids) on board for insight, and were much more familiar with the Borg and knew what to expect. That alone could have helped them fare better.

There you can see one of my points. The Borg were supposed to be cool calculating machines with no emotions, only intended to assimilate or destroy.

But that changed with the Borg Queen. Suddenly they are more like Seska and Culluh than Borg and don't forget how the Borg Queen was wimpering around Picard like a lovesick schoolgirl in "First Contact".

The Borg became like any common hostile species which we can see in other Star Trek episodes.

It's also a problem when you create an enemy which is almost invincible. Then it needs some almost ridiculous solution to finally defeat them, like some super-weapon, some newly-invented technology or the fact that they might be allergic to spinage.

When that weakness is used to defeat them, then it's over.

Therefore I prefer more common villains, like the Kazon or the Cardassians with the flaws they might have. Personally I think that the Cardassians were the best villains Star Trek has come up with.

 

[kes7]

I just realized no one really answered the OP's question, which was "What can I expect from Endgame?" Do you want us to spoil you, or just give you a general idea? I'll go with the latter to be safe.

Endgame is a very entertaining episode. When it's over, though, you'll think about what just happened and probably get kind of mad and feel cheated. As far as the Borg go in that episode, they're really taken down a HUGE notch. If we ever see them again in Trek, my guess is they'd be weakened but really, really determined to assimilate humanity after the stunt we pulled.

Spoiler: more spoilerish for Endgame

Unless they were altogether destroyed -- the episode leaves it ambiguous.

Go enjoy the episode.

 

[NIUPonyBoy]

Enjoy? I don't know if that is the word I would use. lol

The fleets of ships were cool, that is about it.

 

[kes7]

Enjoy? I don't know if that is the word I would use. lol

The fleets of ships were cool, that is about it.

Is that how you felt WHILE you were watching it, or afterward when you thought about it more? My hate for Endgame didn't hit me until about five minutes after the episode ended and I realized what a load of crap it all was ... but I enjoyed watching it.

Spoiler: Endgame

Good interaction between Admiral and Captain Janeway, good interation between Admiral Janeway and the Borg Queen ... watching the Borg blast away at them to no effect was kind of fun. Seeing the Borg Queen writhe around like the Wicked Witch of the West was entertaining. Sure, the C/7 stuff was absurd and the Tuvok stuff was sad, but honestly, before I understood why, I shared Harry's amusement at watching Tuvok finally get beat -- by lowly Icheb, no less -- at Kaltoh. Anyway, the episode sucked in retrospect but it wasn't like it was devoid of entertainment value.