Retconing Admiral Marcus Into Prime Universe Literature
- Thread starter Captain Clark Terrell
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No, Christopher's saying that the has to be some power/force/whatever keeping certain things in the multiverse the same. If it's a case of divergent points and nothing else the Mirror Universe doesn't make sense. The divergence point is way back, Zephram Cochrane's time, yet Kirk's Enterprise still somehow has the same crew; going even further forward the same personnel are on DS9.
If you take into account for the butterfly effect the likelihood of these people even being born, never mind working together is infinitesimally small.
If you take into account for the butterfly effect the likelihood of these people even being born, never mind working together is infinitesimally small.
Well before then, actually. "In a Mirror, Darkly" wasn't presenting that scene as the beginning of the split, since there would've been no reason for Cochrane to be spontaneously violent in that case. The idea was that this was already the more "evil" Mirror Earth that the Vulcans arrived at. As Phlox said later in the 2-parter, Earth's literature diverged between the timelines going back centuries, with only Shakespeare being largely the same in both.
Yes, it's a very bizarre premise, two realities being so similar yet so opposite, century after century. To be honest, I think I might've preferred Jerome Bixby's original idea for "Mirror, Mirror," in which the alternate timeline wasn't an "evil twin" universe but just a history where certain things unfolded differently, like Kirk being married and the Federation losing a war because they never invented phasers.
What I posited in Watching the Clock was that a one-way time travel into a new timeline could create a one-way entanglement that would influence events in the altered timeline to unfold similarly to events in the timeline that the time travelers came from. This was implicitly meant to explain the seeming "destiny" acting in the Abramsverse, but it could also apply to the Mirror Universe if you assume the Defiant was the connection. That doesn't explain the similarities prior to 2154, though.
Okay, so I did originally understand what you were saying. But I think perhaps you just didn't understand what I was trying to get across. Oh well. Win some, lose some.
Infinitesimally small is large enough to be an absolute certainty when you have an infinite number of universes.
And if I remember correctly, the special intro for that two-parter showed an Earth history different from ours, as there were depictions of Nazi planes flying over American soil, and so forth.
--Sran
Let me point this out again: Yes, an infinite number of universes creates a 100% probability that any given timeline will theoretically exist, but effectively a 0% probability (n divided by infinity) that any given timeline can ever be reached. If you're searching randomly through an infinite number of universes, it will take an infinite amount of time to find a universe meeting any given set of specifications, e.g. a universe with the same laws of physics, galaxies, planets, and species as your own, let alone one with the same individuals. Which means, in other words, that it will never happen. The only way it makes sense for a traveler between timelines to come across one with similarities to her home timeline is if there is a finite selection of accessible realities to choose from. And if that is the case, if you're dealing with that finite set of realities, then you simply cannot invoke infinite opportunities as an explanation for their similarities. It's a logical contradiction. There must be some other reason, besides random chance, why the Mirror Universe is part of the same sheaf of accessible realities as the Prime timeline.
I'm not arguing that there is an infinitesimally small random chance to end up in any given universe. I was simply pointing out a mechanism whereby that randomness becomes less random. Some rhyme & reason for accessing any specific universe in the infinite multiverse. That doesn't necessarily make it likely, or even significantly probable. Simply possible.
The tree model would mean that the specific MU in Trek that is repeatedly shown somehow has precedence in the tree over other possibilities, however remote.
The tree model would mean that the specific MU in Trek that is repeatedly shown somehow has precedence in the tree over other possibilities, however remote.
There is another fictional IP spread across a broad multiverse where the concept of "continuity families" exists; each of which acting as a cluster of semi-related universal streams that are each more closely related to one another than they are to those in more distant branches across the multiverse. (The terms used to describe each continuity family in-universe also include minus numbers, to cover those Mirrorverse-esque "negative polarity universes" where faction orientations are reversed and what have you.)
So, while there doesn't seem to be any similar in-universe designations applicable in this franchise, the concept of divergent continuity families may apply from an out-of-universe perspective.
But then, in terms of real-world IP matters, there is at least one case in which a licence holder (ADB) has a property (the Star Fleet Universe) which is divorced from the "main" Paramount/CBS franchise, but one which was partially meshed with aspects from the post-1979 TV/movie material (in Taldren's first two-and-a-half Starfleet Command series).
Just how far into the deepest reaches of the Franchise multiverse can one go before they recede and make room for a different (yet still officially licenced) cluster of quantum realities?
So, while there doesn't seem to be any similar in-universe designations applicable in this franchise, the concept of divergent continuity families may apply from an out-of-universe perspective.
But then, in terms of real-world IP matters, there is at least one case in which a licence holder (ADB) has a property (the Star Fleet Universe) which is divorced from the "main" Paramount/CBS franchise, but one which was partially meshed with aspects from the post-1979 TV/movie material (in Taldren's first two-and-a-half Starfleet Command series).
Just how far into the deepest reaches of the Franchise multiverse can one go before they recede and make room for a different (yet still officially licenced) cluster of quantum realities?
Okay, I see what you're saying, but the point is that there has to be something nonrandom at work, so for practical purposes we're discussing a finite set of universes -- those that are accessible to one another within a finite span of time -- and thus any invocation of infinity is irrelevant and doesn't constitute an explanation for anything pertaining to that finite set. I think we're both saying the same thing, that there must be some nonrandom mechanism connecting the Prime and Mirror timelines, but all the mentions of infinity are a distraction from that.
TOS could have 99.9% in common with the Mirror Universe. The Mirror universe would have 99.9% in common with TOS but also with it's over version of the mirror universe (The one where everyone is Canadian instead of American and is much more polite). However, the Canadian universe yould on;y have 99.8% in common with TOS and would therefore be "harder" to access directly from TOS. From the Mirror universe both would be equally accessible. Repeat as necessary.
The less they have in common, the less likely you are to be able to access it. You may have to walk your way across the multiverse in order to reach the really unrecognizable universes.
Using my forest analogy, TOS and the mirror universe are elms, as are the various universes we saw in Parallels. They get taller or shorted the further you get from any particular tree but soon you're encountering maples and birch and spruce. The characters may exist on these trees but they'd be unrecognizable. (Kirk's a pirate, Uhura's a business owner, Sulu never existed due to his parents dying, Scotty's ancestor died centuries ago and there's no one even close to him).
The less they have in common, the less likely you are to be able to access it. You may have to walk your way across the multiverse in order to reach the really unrecognizable universes.
Using my forest analogy, TOS and the mirror universe are elms, as are the various universes we saw in Parallels. They get taller or shorted the further you get from any particular tree but soon you're encountering maples and birch and spruce. The characters may exist on these trees but they'd be unrecognizable. (Kirk's a pirate, Uhura's a business owner, Sulu never existed due to his parents dying, Scotty's ancestor died centuries ago and there's no one even close to him).
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