regarding bajorans

[Timo]

It is of course possible that the Cardassians actively deported Bajoran troublemakers, in much the same way as the Nazis deported Jews at first. And continuing with the analogy, the use of Bajorans as slave labor would begin later on, perhaps only after a war (the one with the Klingons at Betreka, or the one with the Feds later on) forced the Cardassian hand. The analogy would break down later on, though, as there's no evidence of irrational genocidal goals in the Cardassian occupation policy.

I don't think the founding of interstellar colonies could ever be a valid means of reducing population pressures as such - not even with cheap and fast FTL travel and welcoming Class M environments. It would never have enough effect to outperform even a moderate contraceptives campaign. All Trek colonies seem to be founded for the heck of it, or as counterculture protests against homeworld or core region policies. Bajorans don't seem to do much "for the heck of it" stuff, but there could be dissidents interested in founding interstellar settlements - especially in the early 24th century where the government would be accommodating the pushy Cardassians and the populance might be dissatisfied.

As for Bajor VIII, the planet was said to have exactly six colonies, with mere "thousands of people" in total. That'd mean either a relatively recent operation, or then an operation limited by the lack of Class M environs, confined under domes or somesuch. I still think only Cardassian orders would send Bajorans into domed cities on an uninhabitable planet, when they otherwise refuse to inhabit even the paradisial fifth moon of their homeworld. After all, Bajor VIII wouldn't meet even the need to get away from the government, as the colonies would still remain in the same star system and be within easy reach.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's interesting that you point out the idea of a contraceptives campaign--interestingly, dialogue makes me think it's Cardassians who have the larger families on average, than the Bajorans. So, I don't see any evidence that the Bajoran religion interprets contraception...not even allowing the initial formation of a Bajoran life...as a problem.

Now, I am trying to remember where Ensign Ro came from, and I keep thinking it was a colony. There's been speculation (though I think it's mainly in the books) that she was not a believer or at least not an orthodox one. I could see that being a reason that some might go and colonize another world--after all, religious differences have been a reason that we've observed in Earth history.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I actually believe the Bajorans probably used some other mode of transportation that allowed them to get along without warp drive. I'm willing to bet their little trick of riding tachyon eddies was actually common knowledge among their space service until the Cardassians started smashing them.

 

[Timo]

It's a bit difficult to believe that a mere century of foreign influence (and probably less) would have so completely erased the memory of lightsail travel that Sisko has to work out a "proof" for it all by himself...

I mean, it wasn't just that the art of tachyon eddy travel was lost in those 800 years between the last known use of the type of lightsail Sisko built, and the voyage of Sisko's replica. The entire art of lightsail building and operation seemed to be gone, too - the fact that the sails were used for interplanetary travel was mere legend.

That is, unless Sisko was being condescending and considering recent Bajoran historical reports "legend".

Now, I am trying to remember where Ensign Ro came from, and I keep thinking it was a colony. There's been speculation (though I think it's mainly in the books) that she was not a believer or at least not an orthodox one. I could see that being a reason that some might go and colonize another world--after all, religious differences have been a reason that we've observed in Earth history.

"Conundrum" has a personnel file on her, establishing her as a native Bajoran - but of course, that wasn't all that clearly readable on screen. From "Ensign Ro", we know she lived most of her pre-Starfleet life on refugee camps similar to Valo.

"The Next Phase" went to some length establishing that Ro didn't believe in the standard Bajoran stories of afterlife at least.

I could see that being a reason that some might go and colonize another world--after all, religious differences have been a reason that we've observed in Earth history.

Possibly. But Ro was driven from her home by the Cardassians - or at least that is the implication in her introductory episode, where she tells how her father was tortured to death, and how she lived in refugee camps. Combined with the later tidbit that she was born on Bajor, the story of eviction or flight becomes clear.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

Maybe the Bajorans did obliterate themselves at some time in the ancient past and they were lucky to rebuild at all. I'm reminded of the Babylon 5 episode where we hop through Earth's future up to a million years ahead. There's nuclear holocaust I think...later a second set of Dark Ages with pitiable monks carrying on the remnants of history...on and on. Humans eventually develop into Vorlon/Shadow-like energy-beings, but that's a million years after the events of the series' 5-year arc. Not all races fared even that well. The Narn and Centauri were said earlier in the series to be on their way out - implicitly, for their vengefulness and arrogance.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It's a bit difficult to believe that a mere century of foreign influence (and probably less) would have so completely erased the memory of lightsail travel that Sisko has to work out a "proof" for it all by himself...

It took less time than that for the Dakotas to completely forget that they used to be an agrarian society and reinvent themselves as nomadic hunters. It's quite amazing what a brutal and systematic campaign of oppression and censorship can do to a society.

On the other hand, Sisko did have some incredibly sophisticated blueprints to work from, so obviously the knowledge wasn't completely lost.

I mean, it wasn't just that the art of tachyon eddy travel was lost in those 800 years between the last known use of the type of lightsail Sisko built

More like 300, judging by the timeline from this guy. Also, there's a reference to Kai Taluno almost falling into the wormhole around the 22nd century, which implies the Bajorans were still using light sail ships during the ENT era.

The entire art of lightsail building and operation seemed to be gone, too - the fact that the sails were used for interplanetary travel was mere legend.

But it's implied that even the Cardassians knew otherwise. The knowledge was probably forcibly suppressed in a disinformation campaign, or else quietly omitted from Cardassian-edited textbooks. It's sort of like how nobody in America remembers that Helen Keller grew up to become a communist.

 

[Timo]

More like 300, judging by the timeline from this guy. Also, there's a reference to Kai Taluno almost falling into the wormhole around the 22nd century, which implies the Bajorans were still using light sail ships during the ENT era.

Hmm. That's probably still consistent with what Sisko says in "Explorers". Perhaps it's "legend" that the ships existed 800 years prior to the episode, but "fact" that they existed 200 years prior.

And it sounds perfectly Bajoran that the very same ship model Sisko built out of 800-yr-old blueprints would be the vessel of choice for Akorem Laam 600 years later... Or perhaps Sisko is using 200-yr-old blueprints to approximate a 800-yr-old design, since truly authentic ones are unavailable?

To forget is human, I guess. But would Bajorans forget? They have their ultraconservative monastries, which seem to have enjoyed some degree of immunity from Cardassian prying and meddling. Even if spreading of the word to the masses was suppressed during the actual occupation, one would expect stories of ancient glories to spread out almost immediately after the Cardassian withdrawal, and in a fairly authentic form to boot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

To forget is human, I guess. But would Bajorans forget? They have their ultraconservative monastries, which seem to have enjoyed some degree of immunity from Cardassian prying and meddling.

Detailed records of space exploration doesn't strike me as something the monestaries would have carefully archived. As it stands, Dax only knows about Kai Taluno because he's a religious figure who reported something strange in the denorious belt. It's likely that Bajoran light sailors encountered weird things--like the wormhole--all the time, but the religious groups were only interested in those voyages related to the prophets or the capture of orbs.

Even if spreading of the word to the masses was suppressed during the actual occupation, one would expect stories of ancient glories to spread out almost immediately after the Cardassian withdrawal, and in a fairly authentic form to boot.

If there were, Sisko--would be the last to know about it. It's something that's more likely to appear in folktales and word-of-mouth legends, or alluded to in volumes of books and collective memories that won't show up in an anthropological search engine.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Now, I am trying to remember where Ensign Ro came from, and I keep thinking it was a colony. There's been speculation (though I think it's mainly in the books) that she was not a believer or at least not an orthodox one.

I always got the impression that Ro didn't believe in Bajoran spiritual teachings. She definitely doesn't believe in borhyas (ghosts), and her rebellious attitude in general does not particularly lend itself well to any kind of spiritual belief. Kira seemed very religious; Ro, not so much.

Who knows, Ro may be a Pah-wraith cultist. Apart from her, they've been the only Bajorans who wear the earring on the left ear, haven't they?

As for Bajor and warp drive: I always assumed that the Cardassian occupation left Bajor's space program in such total shambles that they simply had no warp capable ships left. I highly doubt a culture as advanced as theirs was (pre-Occupation) would have *never* developed warp drive.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The Pah-Wraith cultists usually have a red earring. Her...I suspect she wore her earring that way just to piss people off.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Pah-Wraith cultists usually have a red earring.

I suspect that the red earring is a red herring.

(It would actually be pretty funny if they actually wore a red herring. Although the pah wraiths might not be happy for their followers to walk around in public with live fish strapped to their heads. )

 

[Kegg]

The earring likely has cultural significant as well as a religious (from one, the other). Ro Laren is probably insisting on wearing it as a signifier of her identity as Bajoran, just like having her name read the Bajoran fashion.

 

[Timo]

Detailed records of space exploration doesn't strike me as something the monestaries would have carefully archived.

I wouldn't be so sure. Space travel would be one of the things the religion would probably obsess about, because the Prophets live in space. Our Christian monks obsessed about timekeeping for reasons pertaining to their religion; Bajoran ones probably wouldn't have that obsession, but they'd keep a close look at all things celestial...

It's something that's more likely to appear in folktales and word-of-mouth legends, or alluded to in volumes of books and collective memories that won't show up in an anthropological search engine.

Remember that it's quite possible that the "it" we're talking about is space travel in the early 24th century - and that if there wasn't an interruption between Akorem Laam's days and the arrival of the Cardassians, then the tradition of space travel was never interrupted in Bajor. Indeed, slave labor was apparently hauled to space and back every day, refugees and personae non grata flew whichever way, and there were contacts with aliens willing to support the resistance movement. So the issue would stay quite topical throughout the occupation.

Forgetting about the tachyon eddies or even the lightsails is quite possible, even if unlikely. But the matter isn't "irrelevant" myth - it would have been central to the Bajoran way of life, during the occupation moreso than before it!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Timo, I'm not saying the Bajorans would have completely forgotten about the fact that they used to travel in space, that was common knowledge even on Bajor. At issue here is whether or not their interplanetary forays remained in the record or were forcibly supressed by the Cardassians. I tend to think the latter is the case, since the Cardassians would have every reason (both for their own peace of mind and to demoralize the Bajorans) to revise the history of their conquered slaves to be that of backwards hill people toiling away in their mindless superstitions who never would have gotten anything done without Cardassia's help.

Especially since Bajoran records weren't strictly correlated with Starfleet records and instruments, they had 1) No way of knowing for sure where they had been and how they had gotten there and 2) probably didn't interpret the significance of those voyages the way humans did after the invention of warp drive. Indeed, it probably wasn't until the Cardassians first arrived on Bajor that the concept of interplanetary relations, politics, and--tragically--interplanetary war entered the Bajoran psyche; prior to this, it as just "age of sail" extrapolated into space.

And you can probably picture what would have happened to the historical record of Columbus' voyage if Columbus had remained on Hispanola without returning to Europe, or if Europe had suddenly been invaded and conquered by the Ottoman Empire in the start of the 16th century.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And you can probably picture what would have happened to the historical record of Columbus' voyage if Columbus had remained on Hispanola without returning to Europe...

I believe Orson Scott Card actually wrote a book along those lines.

BTW, I would also think the Cardassians would want to suppress records of Bajoran achievements, as well.