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regarding bajorans

clever_username

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
was it ever stated on-screen why bajorans never developed warp travel? how did the federation come to have dealings with a non-warp civilization? i'm thinking the first season of ds9 would probably clear the second question up, but i aint got room on my puter for it right now
 
Do we know they never had warp, period, or just that their scientists did not invent it? Not all species have the PD--they could've bought it off of someone...or maybe they knew how but were not interested.

(And who knows, they might've still had subspace communications.)
 
in that romulan blockade episode, they only had impulse drive ships, and iirc, those were new. prior to that i think they used those sail ships
 
I think the impulse ships may of been the first ones they had built since the Occupation. They were resource poor at the time, so it might be a while before they started building warp capable ships. They also had established colonies on the other side of the wormhole, so maybe they have access to warp-capable ships, that just aren't combat effective?

There seemed to be indications in some episodes (not sure which) that the Bajorans were famous in nearby space for their cultue and art, so they probably had some ability to interact with interstellar empires, which would imply either FTL comms, FTL travel, or for some reason people decided to visit their system. I guess it depends which you feel is the most likely.
 
They did have warp technology, they just weren't a militaristic species and were so steamrolled by the Cardassians.
 
The Bajorans started off with solar-sailing ships like the one seen in 'Explorers', but that was centuries ago (Although I have trouble imagining how they launched them, they don't look like they'd pop out of a Saturn V-style rocket) and as far as I'm aware they eventually developed warp-travel in the same way as everyone else.

Although I actually quite like the idea that the Bajorans had no faster-than-light ships prior to the Cardassian invasion.
 
They were supposed to be something like "an ancient culture that brought art architecture and literature to countless worlds while humans were barely walking erect." I imagine they had it. The impulse ships I thought were bought or whatever they could scrounge around post-occupation.
 
The thing is, the Bajorans were so ancient that they should have been able to develop warp, become techno-gods, succumb to some sort of a total collapse of civilization, start anew from stone axes, and work their way back to warp - twenty times over!

After all, according to that "Ensign Ro" quote, Bajorans had thriving cities hundreds of thousands of years ago, while humans went from those to warp in just ten thousand years. Of course, the statement in "Ensign Ro" may involve some mild exaggerating... But Picard generally isn't prone to that sort of stuff, not in matters of archaeology.

We know for a fact that Bajor had lightsails 800 years before the TV show. We don't know what else Bajor had back then, though. Today, we have hovercraft - but we also still have sailboats. Still, the controversy in "Explorers" was about the Bajoran ability to reach Cardassia those 800 years ago, with lightsail. If Bajor had at that time possessed warp or some other interstellar drive system, the controversy would not make sense. So let's argue that Bajor's best interstellar drive system 800 years prior was lightsail, and that Bajor had never had anything better even in the distant past (although the latter we cannot know for sure).

How come Bajorans didn't become techno-gods in all that time? One word: Janitza mountains.

Okay, two words. But in "House of Quark", it's stated that this mountain range has never been surveyed before our heroes set up to do it. On a human planet, this would be utterly unthinkable after millennia of civilization. Humans go places - they can't help it. The Janitza mountains prove that the Bajoran psyche is fundamentally different. Perhaps it's got something to do with their caste system. Dunno. But it's also established in "Progress" that the perfectly habitable fifth moon of Bajor was never settled by the natives until the Cardassians came - another complete impossibility if Bajorans were humans.

So Bajorans don't do things and go places. But others do. Cardassians came; no doubt hundreds of others would have done so in the preceding millennia. And once the cat is out of the bag and Bajor knows that there are space aliens, the Feds no longer have any reason not to contact them, too. If the UFP didn't make contact before the Cardassians did, then contact would happen soon thereafter, due to the waves of Bajoran refugees splashing on UFP shores...

This still gets us no closer to the question of when Bajor got warp. What we know is that they didn't have it 800 years before the show - and that they assuredly had it when the show started.

We saw a Bajoran warp-propelled vessel in the very first regular episode of the show, "Past Prologue". This vessel had been fleeing a Cardassian warp-capable ship and was saved through reaching Bajoran space: ergo, she was warp-capable herself. Indeed, many later shows would demonstrate how this two-nacelled, triangular vessel would fly in interstellar space (although admittedly always at impulse when the camera happened upon her) in Bajoran or Cardassian service. Since the vessel was Cardassian in "Rules of Engagement", we might surmise that the design was Cardassian originally, and that a few surplus vessels found their way to Bajoran hands after the occupation, probably in a state of dismal repair. The ships of this design tend to be of Cardassian yellow finish, too, perhaps further supporting this theory.

Bajor at the beginning of the show is also served by a large number of warp-capable freighters. The very first we see, in the second episode "A Man Alone", is identical in design to the ship previously used by the Bajora terrorists in "Ensign Ro". Again, this could be taken as support that the design (another triangle) is another common Bajoran warp freighter, and again possibly of Cardassian origin. In "Ensign Ro", it was a plot point that the freighter was incapable of warp, but it was also a plot point that the Cardassians did not know this - meaning that the ship was designed to do warp but had lost the ability in the hands of the Bajora, due to lack of repair.

A third warp-capable freighter is soon added to the Bajoran inventory. In "Move Along Home", the Wadi arrive from the Gamma Quadrant in a ship of distinct design. At that point, we may think it is a Wadi design, but later on it becomes a common transport in the Bajor region. A Trill delegation uses it for interstellar travel in "Rejoined"; a Bajoran scavenger has it in interstellar space in "Indiscretion". So perhaps it's a Bajoran design, and the Bajorans just gave a lift to the Wadi and the Trills? The design again offers further support for commonality, as its two warp wings are basically identical in design to the single such feature atop the "Ensign Ro" ship. A Bajoran nacelle? OTOH, again the coloration is Cardassian, and the ship has circular ridges atop and below in the very same style that the Cardassian Hideki class (first seen in "Profit and Loss") sports. Also, Cardassian allies of the Xepolite persuasion fly this ship in "The Maquis II".

So certainly Bajor is fully warp-capable for the entire duration of DS9 the TV show. It could be argued that the warp drives are non-native, all of Cardassian origin (perhaps purchased before the Cardassians turned from trade to occupation, perhaps scavenged or pilfered after the Cardassians left), but that doesn't really change anything.

What about those "impulse ships" of "Shadows and Symbols" fame, then? Most of them are freighters we have seen before - and all of those freighter designs have been proven to be warp-capable! But we can easily argue that these individual freighters were all warp-incapable, because of combat damage or wear and tear, and that this was the very reason Kira was able to use them in her blockade. All warp-capable freighters of those types would have been flying at warp on assignments already. Hell, we even spot a variant of the distinct Karemma freighter design from the Gamma Quadrant ("Starship Down") in that "impulse fleet" - probably indeed a Karemman ship stranded on the wrong side of the wormhole by the war, and doing their bit for the anti-Dominion cause.

But what about the winged, birdlike vessels forming the bulk of the "impulse fleet"? In "The Siege", Kira shows&tells that those vessels are used as interceptors, and that they possess impulse engines while Kira's small fightercraft does not. Yet both vessels were also seen in TNG "Preemptive Strike", serving the Maquis cause on attack missions that would almost assuredly have required warp drive. And the winged interceptor was also seen in the Mirror Universe ("Through the Looking Glass") where Smiley flew interstellar errands with her.

So perhaps it's once again a case of the design being warp-capable as such, but the individual ships in the impulse fleet being warp-incapable?

However, from the DS9 Tech Manual we also read that this interceptor can serve as a troop transport for 200 soldiers. This is perfectly plausible, as the hull certainly is large enough, and has a large stern door. But it's a bit funny that the same design would do both interceptor and transport duties. Perhaps the difference lies in internal layout? Perhaps troop transports are created out of the standard design by removing the warp engines? Kira's twelve impulse ships in "Shadows and Symbols" could then all have been of this variant that lacks warp engines by default, rather than damaged individuals.

To recap: we have reason to think that

1) Bajor didn't have warp as late as 800 years before the show
2) Bajor had lots of warp when the show began
3) Bajor may never have gotten around to developing native warp tech
4) Bajorans aren't explorers by nature, at least not before the occupation
5) The occupation sent lots of Bajorans to the stars, and its end sent even more

This doesn't sound too implausible or convoluted, and the only jarring thing is the "impulse fleet" in that single episode. Poor writing IMHO - perhaps influenced by the mistaken belief that earlier episodes would have "established" the impulse nature of those Bajoran winged ships.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Or is the idea that the Bajorans existed for centuries at a technological standstill, possibly because of their faith?
 
The caste system would certainly explain things. After all, there's massive change once the system is abandoned during the occupation: the first Bajoran star explorers and star settlers emerge. Perhaps those were never allowed in ye olden times because there was no star explorer caste, and no provision for introducing new castes?

Whether the caste system would stop technological progress per se is less certain. Why should it do that? Even after millennia upon millennia, there might be better irrigation systems to be found, greater creature comforts (the Bajoran religion is definitely hedonist rather than ascetic!), better communications, etc. A caste of inventors might be established for serving the purpose of development, or then each caste would prod their own developers along in search of better technologies.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Whether the caste system would stop technological progress per se is less certain. Why should it do that? Even after millennia upon millennia, there might be better irrigation systems to be found, greater creature comforts (the Bajoran religion is definitely hedonist rather than ascetic!), better communications, etc.
Agreed, but I should've been clearer in my previous post - I'm talking about the development of faster-than-light propulsion by the Bajorans.

The Bajorans, as you've said, probably developed all sorts of new technology, but could've still remained an almost entirely planet-based society.
 
We could argue that the Prophets directly told them to stay put. After all, the Prophets want to protect the Bajorans for some reason (perhaps they are Bajorans themselves, from a previous cycle of technological advancement and later collapse?), but they are also extreme homebodies who don't seem to travel away from the Bajoran system much, because of living in a special Celestial Temple in that system. Surely they would tell their children/cattle/whatever to stay where they can be easily reached for protection.

However, if the faith really were directly opposed to star travel, one would expect to hear of this a lot, beginning with "Ensign Ro" where faithful Bajorans were cruelly forced to travel to the stars.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Bravo, Timo. Good stuff.

Another hypothesis regarding the Prophets' origins--that they're Bajorans from the future--fits in well with the notion that the Bajorans were in arrested development prior to the Occupation. We know the Prophets did absolutely jack shit to protect Bajor from Cardassia--it's not altogether apparent that they could, but they seemed to be able to possess people as well as act through these avatars in very concrete ways. I don't see why the Prophets, if they wished, could not have evicted the Cardassians permanently--either through willing Bajoran suicide superhumans, or by possessing Cardies and jamming forks in their eyes until they decided they would be better off leaving Bajor alone.

If the Bajorans really spent 100,000+ years as an agricultural society, they did so operating under Malthusian constraints at best. The Bajorans probably became accustomed to extremely severe die-offs, in the forms of all the horsemen we're accustomed to. Maybe the Prophets considered the Cardassian interlude a developmental necessity, perhaps in order to establish the conditions for their own evolution.

I've always been iffy on the idea that the Prophets developed much earlier on Bajor and shed the mortal coil, yet still have an affection for Bajor that runs to its current dominant species. It kind of makes the 24th century Bajorans the equivalent of the apes from the "Planet of," but Charlton Heston has become a glowing ball of non-linear time who for some reason still gives a crap about the crude biological struggles of the inferior beings on Earth. If they really wanted to keep the pah wraiths caged, they should have sterilized the planet before the Bajorans ever existed--or even after, who cares about these adversarial creatures anyway?--and put up a really big sign, like Organian big, telling the other linear wieners to steer well clear of B'hava'el.

There is however another alternative to the Prophets' apparent respect for the Cardassians--Cardassians are Bajorans, which is indeed consistent with the bulk of the evidence, which includes accidental interbreeding, marrow transfusions and DNA confusions on Voyager, and the curious case of Kira Nerys not being able to tell whether or not she could possibly have been Iliana Ghemor through the simple expedient of hiring a Cardassian general practicioner to do a physical. In that case, the Prophets might be reluctant to mess with the Cardassians, their great-nephews or great-uncles in some invisibly distant parentela.
 
The FTL technology accidentially discovered and used in Bajoran lightships could not have served as a basis for interstellar exploration or colonization since there was no self-evident means for a return trip.

A technology exchange with a third-party other than warpless Cardassians must have occured sometime in the past.
 
I still do not agree that there's any way Cardassians and Bajorans could be the same species, though I know you and I have had that discussion repeatedly. And no, my avatar does not provide evidence that they are. ;)

As to the arrested development, it's my personal theory that the Bajoran species--and its reluctance to develop certain kinds of technology--may be the aftereffects of a major disaster. I would personally suspect a bioweapons release given we saw no signs of it on the ecosystem...something "Captain Trips" bad. That could explain what it was that did them such severe damage that it would knock down their civilization for thousands of years. What we're seeing on DS9 may be the second cycle, so to speak.

Also, I do believe Bajor had some colonies prior to the Occupation, which points to the existence of some kind of warp technology--maybe they bought it off the Cardassians before the Cardassians turned on them, or from another species. That would help with the population pressures to some degree.
 
Also, I do believe Bajor had some colonies prior to the Occupation, which points to the existence of some kind of warp technology

Yeah, "Time's Orphan" mentions the Golana colony... Founded in the "early 24th century", and thus possibly before the arrival of the Cardassians.

Memory Alpha's list includes eight Bajoran colonies, one of them New Bajor in the Gamma Quadrant and thus clearly post-occupation.

Two others are Valo II and III, which were refugee camps for those fleeing the occupation. There's basically no infrastructure in place there in "Ensign Ro", so it's unlikely they were preexisting Bajoran colonies.

Then there's Prophet's Landing, close to the Cardassian border. But the border is an artifact of post-occupation history. And it's unlikely that a location closer to Cardassia than Bajor is would have gone unoccupied during Bajor's occupation, or be liberated and ceded to Bajor at the Cardassian withdrawal from the homeworld.

Then we have Free Haven, which was threatened by the Breen. Could be pre-or post-oc, but the name sort of suggests latter...

And then there's a Badlands colony at Dreon VIII, an unlikely location unless the colonists were desperate. Thus probably another refugee colony.

Bajor VIII from "Past Prologue" appears to be the only colonized body in the Bajoran system. Class M or not? Perhaps a Cardassian mining site, rather than a native Bajoran effort?

Overall, it appears that only Golana requires us to believe in adventurous, colonizing Bajorans during the time of the caste system. That is, unless there already was a refugee movement in the early 24th century, spurned by the arrival of the Cardassians. The exact beginning of the occupation is left somewhat hazy in the show, and Golana might be an occupation product just as well as an indigenous Bajoran effort.

Timo Saloniemi
 
In the end, I would say that Golana and Bajor VIII are possible pre-Occupation colonies. To relieve population pressures, probably only a few locations would be necessary, in my personal opinion, since the goal is simply to settle people in a self-sustaining fashion and there is no threat to the homeworld. This points to a very pragmatic approach towards space travel and colonization from the Bajorans--that it's not done just for the hell of it, but for very particular, practical purposes.

This is different, of course, from refugees fleeing, where you want to avoid putting all your eggs in one basket.

It's also different from the Cardassian aim in colonizing--there, you have a resource-poor homeworld where the goal is to spread as far as possible to gain resources to maintain a population at home that is not self-sustaining. This puts a tremendous pressure on them to spread as far as possible, that I don't think the Bajorans had.

Now, what may be interesting is that in my AU fanfic series, set in the universe we saw in "Parallels" where the Bajorans and Cardassians had reversed roles, the Cardassians still had done quite a bit of colonization. The only difference was the way they went about it--rather than invading, they first established trade relationships to sustain them while they colonized uninhabited worlds and waited for them to yield a return that could help Cardassia Prime.
 
Here's a question that just occurred to me: is it ever explained how Bajorans (apparently a fair number) escaped the occupation? It's not like you can walk to the Federation from Bajor.

I guess Cardassian technology? Did the Cardassians have a policy of permitting Bajorans to leave?
 
If one assumes the Bajorans had warp travel until the Cardassians took steps to eliminate it, it's safe to assume some/many Bajorans were or managed to get off-world before things went too far.

The Terok Nor books delve into this.
 
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