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Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to DS9

Matt4511

Captain
Captain
The text below is from an email exchange I was having with a friend. I open it up to thoughts here:

I long believed — during the run of DS9 — that Starfleet probably totalled around 12,000 or so capital ships (loosely defined as any vessel capable of conducting the full spectrum of Starfleet operations indepedent from any other vessel for ongoing support). I wasn't fanatically wedded to that number, mind you. I can believe 10,000. Or 8,000. Anywhere in between. I don't remember exactly why I settled on 12,000 — it had something to do with the writers mentioning at some point that the Dominion had 30,000 ships, and figuring that even when you discount a lot of that due to the Jem'Hadar fielding a large number of small ships, the UFP still needed to be relatively competitive.

But the exact number doesn't matter, per se. The important thing is the perceived expansion in the fleet from TNG to DS9. Whatever the total number is, it suddenly seemed to get a whole lot bigger.

Possible explanations:

1. Fleet was always large, but dispersed out of the core of the Federation. This means a lot of ships on long-range exploration missions, and a lot of ships "forward deployed" to border areas, while the core of the UFP, believed secure, is lightly defended. This can be logically justified with many canon references, but is somewhat unattractive simply because it presumes that Starfleet is almost criminally negligent in leaving the core exposed despite plenty of hints that that is dumb. AKA V’Ger, Whale Probe, Borg, apparent relative proximity to Neutral Zone, etc.

1b. If this is the case, the Federation might have a Fleet specifically assigned to the defence of the core (to take dialogue from the most recent Trek movie, call this the Primary Fleet). Wolf 359 might have seen the Primary Fleet, what Shelby simply referred to as "the Fleet", gutted, while most of Starfleet remained intact, but too far away to intervene.

2. Massive expansion of the fleet after Wolf 359. This is certainly plausible, and would explain the sudden appearance of so many new classes of ship, a sharp break from the apparent Starfleet policy of relying on older, proven designs. It's not hard to fathom that an organization the size of the UFP could go on such a building binge. But it would put a huge strain on logistical and human(oid) resources. Just because you can crank about 200 new starships a month for an entire decade doesn't mean you can find captains for them.

2b. I would imagine that with some few exceptions, this expansion would have prioritized smaller, heavily armed ships over large multi-purpose ones. Intrepids and Akiras seem to pack a lot of punch, but neither seems to come close to the overall mass of a Nebula-class. I’d imagine Starfleet took what existing Nebula and Galaxy-class ships it had, punched up their firepower until they were total ass-kickers, and then made sure that they had lots of comparatively little ships that could escort them and give them cover. (Akiras, though, might be as powerful or even more powerful than Nebulas, but I bet an upgraded Nebula is in the ballpark of any frontline Federation ship, other than the Sovereign, which really do seem to be the ultimate Federation battle vessel, you know, when they're not boldly going).

3. Some expansion of the Fleet, combined with the re-activation of a large number of mothballed Miranda and Excelsior-class ships.

4. General tactical upgrades to the entire fleet. My sense with the Galaxy-class (and comparable ships of that era) is that they were not designed to be as powerful as the Federation could build 'em, but as powerful as the Federation felt they'd likely need. Since they were designed as explorers, I'm sure that their tactical systems were settled upon something like this: "OK, Intelligence estimates that the best Klingon warship can do X, and the best Romulan ship, Y. So let's round that up 20% and design a ship that can reasonably best that ship in combat." Only later on, after the Borg and the Dominion first contacts, did Starfleet go back to the drawing board and say, "OK, forget that. How much firepower can these ships actually hold, and how long to refit all of them to be that powerful?" So you'd have every class of ship in the fleet get a Tactical Capabilities Review. All new ships would be built to that standard. All existing ships would be refitted to achieve it.

5. Planetary defence fleets nominally under the control of member planet governments could be federalized and added to the Starfleet order-of-battle in times of war or crisis. There’s a certain appeal to this (especially if we assume that most UFP local defence organizations typically purchase designs already in service with Starfleet). If that’s the case, maybe the sudden surge in the number of older ships can be explained by the fact that most local UFP defence organizations use Excelsior and Miranda class ships as the backbone of their militias. But overall I don’t like this point, since there is absolutely nothing in canon that would even hint at it. At all. Even though it’s plausible.

Personally, I think the big change was related to #4, and is like what Q said when he flung the Enterprise into the path of the first Borg cube. The Federation WAS complacent. For 200 or so years, it had measured itself against the Romulans and the Klingons ... and had been growing in power in relative terms the entire time. After the Praxis explosion, the UFP was left with a fleet that was more than sufficient to defeat the Romulans and the hobbled Klingons. Over the course of the 24th Century, the Klingons became outright allies, further isolating the Romulans, and the only real threats to the Federation aren’t fundamental threats to its existence — Cardassians, Tholians, Tamarians and Tzenkethi are all dangerous to the colonies and starship crews in the contested sectors, but not to the existence of the Federation. When the Borg comes along and blows right through the Federation to Earth in a couple of weeks, and later on when the Dominion begins rolling through UFP territory (far enough through to threaten the Romulans and Klingons directly), for the first time in a LONG time, the Federation faces an existential threat to its survival. Not this or that border colony, but the actual survival of the Federation as a geopolitical entity.

After that realization sinks in, I actually imagine that every option discussed above is used in some measure. I personally favour 1 and 4 the most, but agree that 2 and 3 would also have played a part. I think the Federation strategy was essentially this: “OK, the first thing we do is get the fleet back home and concentrate it in actual combat units. Then we increase the firepower on every one of them — no more bullshit about keeping them competitive with other races’ ships, we want to have the most powerful ships we can field, bar none. We’re also going to want to ramp up building as quickly as we can, and we should probably look into putting mothballed ships back into service whenever that makes sense on a case-by-case basis.”
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

1) I'm pretty sure the "living in the post-Wolf-359 galaxy" justifies it for me. If I'd ever wondered about this particular discussion (I haven't until today) that's pretty much where I'd land I think.

2) You have given this WAY more time and thought than I ever have.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

2) You have given this WAY more time and thought than I ever have.

That's funny coming a guy on a Star Trek forum. What? Are you the leper with the most fingers? :lol:
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

I didn't mean to sound condescending; it's just this particular issue is not one I've (over)focused my attention on. Certainly there have been others I've wondered about (could Saavik be Sybok's love child with a Romulan woman? Is the mirror Enterprise just a re-branded USS Defiant? things like that...) but never this issue.

No offense intended.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

Star Fleet was always large but dispersed. Star fleet had large reserves and ships in mothball. star fleet upped ship production reactivated the old ships and combined the fleets a lot more after 359.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

2) You have given this WAY more time and thought than I ever have.

That's funny coming a guy on a Star Trek forum. What? Are you the leper with the most fingers? :lol:

Yes, this is a star trek board. But many members here hardly talk about trek, especially since there are no tv show on the air. To many of us, most topics being discussed on the trek related forums are old, like Tuvix, Why BOTW part two wasn't a good ending to the cliff ending, blah, blah, oh and all those "your top 10 episodes" threads, or your favorite quote.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

I assumed the following:

Increased ship production because of the Borg threat.
Later, increased production because of the Dominion.
Treaty with Klingons meant fewer ships lost in skirmishes and the ability to pull some ships from that border.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

Starfleet is almost criminally negligent ... plenty of hints that that is dumb
The latter might literally be the case, it's possible that Starfleet and the Federation didn't (at least initially) know how to respond to a crisis of this magnitude. Another possibility, is that Starfleet did know how to prosecute the war, but were restrained by political considerations coming out of the Federation council. Thing like "federalizing" the various member's home fleets could have been a controversial move. The attacks on Earth and Betazed (and others) might have been direct results of stripping away the members own indigenous defenses. Also, the rapid expansion of the fleet could have lead to organizational confusion.

General tactical upgrades to the entire fleet.
It a bit ridiculous to assume that ships like the over half century old Excelsior Class (and others) would still have the same phasers, torpedo systems, shield and sensors aboard just prior to the Dominion War, that they did when originally launched. Likely they were upgraded periodically throughout their lifetime.

:)
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

The real-world explanation is simple: During the run of TNG, it was not affordable to produce the visual effects necessary to show large fleets of ships. CGI on a television budget was still in its infancy, and TNG did 99% of it's shots -- and 100% of its ship shots -- using motion control models. By the time of the 3rd and 4th seasons of DS9 and beyond, suddenly CGI had become affordable and massive fleets could be shown.

In-universe, I never saw it as a drastic expansion from TNG to DS9. Certainly there could be some growth in ship production due to the threat of the Borg which then got further ramped up due to the threat of the Dominion. But I generally assumed that the fleet in TNG was just as big as the one in DS9, but we saw a lot less of it.

Think about it... first, there was no war or other sustained conflict going on during TNG's run, so why would we ever have occasion to see a large fleet of ships, save for isolated incidents like Best of Both Worlds? And, second, the Enterprise was a ship of exploration that was oftentimes assigned to uncharted and unexplored areas where you wouldn't expect to see a large Federation presence.

So, for me, I just prefer to assume that the fleet was pretty consistent from TNG through DS9, and all that varied is what parts of the fleet we saw.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

The real-world explanation is simple: During the run of TNG, it was not affordable to produce the visual effects necessary to show large fleets of ships. CGI on a television budget was still in its infancy, and TNG did 99% of it's shots -- and 100% of its ship shots -- using motion control models. By the time of the 3rd and 4th seasons of DS9 and beyond, suddenly CGI had become affordable and massive fleets could be shown.

In-universe, I never saw it as a drastic expansion from TNG to DS9. Certainly there could be some growth in ship production due to the threat of the Borg which then got further ramped up due to the threat of the Dominion. But I generally assumed that the fleet in TNG was just as big as the one in DS9, but we saw a lot less of it.

Think about it... first, there was no war or other sustained conflict going on during TNG's run, so why would we ever have occasion to see a large fleet of ships, save for isolated incidents like Best of Both Worlds? And, second, the Enterprise was a ship of exploration that was oftentimes assigned to uncharted and unexplored areas where you wouldn't expect to see a large Federation presence.

So, for me, I just prefer to assume that the fleet was pretty consistent from TNG through DS9, and all that varied is what parts of the fleet we saw.

^ It doesn't cost them more to for Shelby to say "The second fleet had been destroyed by the Borg" instead of "the fleet...."
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

Another explantion would be, it was a bad line. When it was being written they didn't considered how big the Federation was and how much space it encompassed and how many ships would be needed.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

It doesn't cost them more to for Shelby to say "The second fleet had been destroyed by the Borg" instead of "the fleet...."

Well, what she actually said is "We'll have the fleet back up in less than a year". Nowhere does it actually say "the fleet (as in the whole fleet) is gutted/destroyed". Just that in less than a year they will be able to replace the destroyed ships. In fact, such a large production rate, more than 40 ships per year (and that's possibly just from shipyards in Earth's region, shipyards serving the hypothetical "Home Fleet") coupled with the long life of starships, actually suggests to me that Starfleet is huge even at this point.
 
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Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

the bigger issues is that with such a huge fleet, why is Earth itself so poorly defended?
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

It might be down to the pereception that as Earth is fairly deep within the Federation. Any force would have to ass through a large region of space and could be intereceped. Doesn't excuse the fact that I don't thing we've heard about any Orbitial planetary defensive system.

The Mars Defense perimeter however is a joke, lets send 3 small ships against a cube that has just wiped out 39 out of 40 ships
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

It doesn't cost them more to for Shelby to say "The second fleet had been destroyed by the Borg" instead of "the fleet...."

Well, what she actually said is "We'll have the fleet back up in less than a year". Nowhere does it actually say "the fleet (as in the whole fleet) is gutted/destroyed". Just that in less than a year they will be able to replace the destroyed ships. In fact, such a large production rate, more than 40 ships per year (and that's possibly just from shipyards in Earth's region, shipyards serving the hypothetical "Home Fleet") coupled with the long life of starships, actually suggests to me that Starfleet is huge even at this point.

That's besides my point
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

lol @ the Mars defence perimeter.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

Can those figures be realistically correct?? I mean ok the writers can say there is 12,000 etc ships but in a realistic terms any military body defending such a vast area such as the federation would need huge resources I mean hundreds of thousands of ships, is the figure of what my mind would come up with but I have no expert knowledge in military, it just seems to make sense. Also you got to take in to considerations that in space a territory is not simply a border with a line drawn to say this is my land (or space) it has to be a complex 3d border with width, length and depth to it, so the volume or area to defend is huge its probably like tens of thousands of light years you would be totally stretched out with 12,000 ships.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

Doesn't excuse the fact that I don't thing we've heard about any Orbitial planetary defensive system.

Didn't V'Ger disable Earth's orbital defences in TMP or something like that? And there's always Spacedock. A station as large as that probably packs plenty of firepower.

Hmm, come to think of it... is Earth really that poorly defended? Not counting the pre-Federation times, Earth has been attacked five times that I can remember (in the Prime timeline).

TMP - ok, the Enterprise being the only ship in intercept range is silly here but at least planetary defences were mentioned;

TVH - the Whale Probe deactivating Spacedock and starships in Earth orbit (and on the route to Earth) is mentioned, so there were defences present;

BoBW - I presume all the starships guarding Earth were sent to Wolf 359 and destroyed there. We never see Earth planetary defences but I think the Enterprise defeated the Cube before it reached Earth (there's a mention of planetary defences in dialogue, but I think that's in relation to the Cube passing Jupiter or Mars);

First Contact - well, we have a whole fleet (or rather what's left of it) fighting the Borg here;

And finally the Breen attack on Earth, where Starfleet manages to destroy the attackers (we don't know with what, but I presume there was a fleet protecting Earth).

EDIT: Oh, and Endgame, and there's a pretty large fleet protecting Earth there as well.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

the alpha quadrant is large YES but ships dont defend empty space, that's pointless. they are for defending key planets, systems, installations etc.
 
Re: Rationalizing the perceived jump in Starfleet strength from TNG to

Star Trek on-screen is unfortunately ambiguous in this respect... probably because they don't want to commit to anything specific, allowing for greater flexibility in future stories.

I assumed the following:
Increased ship production because of the Borg threat.
Later, increased production because of the Dominion.
Treaty with Klingons meant fewer ships lost in skirmishes and the ability to pull some ships from that border.

All very good reason for the Federation to "beef up" their forces. Certainly the Borg made them fully aware of the fact that there are indeed very powerful forces in the universe to be reckoned with. Not everybody is friendly and inviting... No big happy galactic family.

The Federation has immense resources. They can probably churn out a few hundred ships in a matter of a month or less. The issue is manning those vessels with trained crews. We do see a good deal of crew members ranging in ages from about 24-50 on board ships... which means you need at least 25 years from birth to serviceable age. I wouldn't be surprised if the Federation opened up a few more Starfleet academies to help staff the service, starting after the Borg encounter in TNG.

The Dominion having 30,000 ships is certainly eye popping. But that doesn't necessarily mean 30,000 warships. Could be a significant portion are smaller scout vessels, tugs, cargo carriers, and other support type vessels. It's ambiguous... so no way to tell if the writers were referring to just vessels that can attack.
 
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