Random thoughts about... (movie spoilers)

[JTK2099]

Here are some thoughts that ran through my head concerning the new timeline created by Nero. On trekmovie.com, Bob Orci said that before the arrival of Nero the timelines are the same. So . . . .

Aren't Humpback Whales still extinct and, therefore, won't the probe still come to Earth looking for them?

Won't V'Ger eventually still come to Earth looking for its creator?

Will the Bell Riots now happen once again with the real Gabriel Bell?

Does First Contact and Cochrane's warp flight happen without the aid of Picard and the Enterprise E in the altered timeline?

 

[borgfan8of5]

Re: Random thoughts about the new timeline

Here are some thoughts that ran through my head concerning the new timeline created by Nero. On trekmovie.com, Bob Orci said that before the arrival of Nero the timelines are the same. So . . . .

Aren't Humpback Whales still extinct and, therefore, won't the probe still come to Earth looking for them?

Won't V'Ger eventually still come to Earth looking for its creator?

Will the Bell Riots now happen once again with the real Gabriel Bell?

Does First Contact and Cochrane's warp flight happen without the aid of Picard and the Enterprise E in the altered timeline?

Well, the Whale probe will still come, I'd assume that that will hopefully play out just like it did in the voyage home. V'Ger is also still on it's way. NOt sure about bell Riots. And also, personally I don't believe that Picard won't exist in this time line, but if he didn't, then the borg would end up coming to earth (as it was revealed that they were on their way anyway in enterprise), and probably successfuly assimilate all of mankind and the federation, so they woudl never have even needed to go back in time to stop First contact.

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: Random thoughts about the new timeline

Odds are highly against a genetically and psychologically identical Picard, since he was conceived after the Kelvin incident (let alone the Narada's subsequent appearances). Even if there is a captain named Jean-Luc Picard, it's almost impossible that it would be the Jean-Luc Picard we know.

Also, Nero didn't technically create the new timeline. If I understand the MWI correctly, it existed already (along with a near-infinite number of others), and he just showed up in it.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Re: Random thoughts about the new timeline

Time travel was only made possible by the accidental time/gravity theory being put into practice when PSI 2000 broke up.

Since the the whole course of the 2260s is now fubar, odds of Kirk being in the right place at the right time are essential zero.


Good luck with the space amoeba, nomad and doomsday machine encounters.

 

[borgfan8of5]

Re: Random thoughts about the new timeline

Odds are highly against a genetically and psychologically identical Picard, since he was conceived after the Kelvin incident (let alone the Narada's subsequent appearances). Even if there is a captain named Jean-Luc Picard, it's almost impossible that it would be the Jean-Luc Picard we know.

Also, Nero didn't technically create the new timeline. If I understand the MWI correctly, it existed already (along with a near-infinite number of others), and he just showed up in it.

How does the destruction of one ship affect the birth of one person on earth years later. What if Colemen had beat Franken for the Election in Minnesota? What if the a ship sunk in the year 1950 that hadn't sunk before. Does that mean that everybody else on the planet would be completely different.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Random thoughts about the new timeline

It's like Farscape and the "time rubber band" theory. Get things as close as they were in the original timeline and time will find a way of getting things as close to the way they were as possible. Kirk is still Captain with the same crewmembers, and Vulcans are being resettled on a new world so beyond those things why assume it'll all be completely different?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, uh be careful about spoilers. This is General Trek Discussion, not the new movie forum, so we have to be mindful of those who haven't seen it.

 

[borgfan8of5]

Re: Random thoughts about the new timeline

It's like Farscape and the "time rubber band" theory. Get things as close as they were in the original timeline and time will find a way of getting things as close to the way they were as possible. Kirk is still Captain with the same crewmembers, and Vulcans are being resettled on a new world so beyond those things why assume it'll all be completely different?

Exactly, why would JLP not exist.

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: Random thoughts about the new timeline

Odds are highly against a genetically and psychologically identical Picard, since he was conceived after the Kelvin incident (let alone the Narada's subsequent appearances). Even if there is a captain named Jean-Luc Picard, it's almost impossible that it would be the Jean-Luc Picard we know.

Also, Nero didn't technically create the new timeline. If I understand the MWI correctly, it existed already (along with a near-infinite number of others), and he just showed up in it.

How does the destruction of one ship affect the birth of one person on earth years later. What if Colemen had beat Franken for the Election in Minnesota? What if the a ship sunk in the year 1950 that hadn't sunk before. Does that mean that everybody else on the planet would be completely different.

The angle of your elbows affects the conception of a child. Every sperm is sacred, after all, and different, and vast coincidences occur to produce a genetically whole organism out of any particular one. That's why siblings don't ordinarily look identical.

Ludicrous cosmic coincidence giving rise to alternate-universe duplicates of our heroes, generation after generation, is fine in the Mirror Universe, where it's played for laughs and cheese. But the notion that the conception of Jean-Luc Picard, or anybody, would happen exactly identically after the crises depicted in the Star Trek film defies all probability to the point of unbelievability, on par with Threshold or Genesis in its affront to biology. The changes that occurred are so macroscopic that it would raise eyebrows if his parents even mated in the first place. If a genetic analogue of Jean-Luc Picard was born it would be roughly as unlikely as a proton decaying.

 

[borgfan8of5]

Re: Random thoughts about the new timeline

Odds are highly against a genetically and psychologically identical Picard, since he was conceived after the Kelvin incident (let alone the Narada's subsequent appearances). Even if there is a captain named Jean-Luc Picard, it's almost impossible that it would be the Jean-Luc Picard we know.

Also, Nero didn't technically create the new timeline. If I understand the MWI correctly, it existed already (along with a near-infinite number of others), and he just showed up in it.

How does the destruction of one ship affect the birth of one person on earth years later. What if Colemen had beat Franken for the Election in Minnesota? What if the a ship sunk in the year 1950 that hadn't sunk before. Does that mean that everybody else on the planet would be completely different.

The angle of your elbows affects the conception of a child. Every sperm is sacred, after all, and different, and vast coincidences occur to produce a genetically whole organism out of any particular one. That's why siblings don't ordinarily look identical.

Ludicrous cosmic coincidence giving rise to alternate-universe duplicates of our heroes, generation after generation, is fine in the Mirror Universe, where it's played for laughs and cheese. But the notion that the conception of Jean-Luc Picard, or anybody, would happen exactly identically after the crises depicted in the Star Trek film defies all probability to the point of unbelievability, on par with Threshold or Genesis in its affront to biology. The changes that occurred are so macroscopic that it would raise eyebrows if his parents even mated in the first place. If a genetic analogue of Jean-Luc Picard was born it would be roughly as unlikely as a proton decaying.

Thats got to be the most unrealistic approach to this situation possible. What if a shocking news story was on the T.V. and raised eyebrows, does that change the fact that someone still went to dinner later that night with a friend, or a date. Just because one thing happened over 100 years before his birth.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Here are some thoughts that ran through my head concerning the new timeline created by Nero. On trekmovie.com, Bob Orci said that before the arrival of Nero the timelines are the same. So . . . .

Aren't Humpback Whales still extinct and, therefore, won't the probe still come to Earth looking for them?

Won't V'Ger eventually still come to Earth looking for its creator?

The answer to those questions is Probably.

Will the Bell Riots now happen once again with the real Gabriel Bell?

No, it will still be Sisko. Remember, his timeline still exists. And the Bell Riots have *already* happened.

Does First Contact and Cochrane's warp flight happen without the aid of Picard and the Enterprise E in the altered timeline?

Also no. That also has already happened.

 

[Myasishchev]

Thats got to be the most unrealistic approach to this situation possible. What if a shocking news story was on the T.V. and raised eyebrows, does that change the fact that someone still went to dinner later that night with a friend, or a date. Just because one thing happened over 100 years before his birth.

^Do you have a brother or sister? Are they genetically identical? Hint: if the sibling is of the opposite sex as you, you can conclusively determine that he or she is not, and need not go to the expense of a DNA lab. This is because gametes are produced through meiosis, which reduces the haploid germ line cells to diploid cells with a halved chromosome count.

Every sperm is different. Millions of sperm compete for the same egg in every coupling--assuming they're not rerouted (hot), physically blocked, chemically stymied, or whatever, so that another try can be made some other time with an entirely different set of gametes. The odds of a genetically identical result emerging from a second attempt by the same parents are astronomical. About one in ten trillion.

Not impossible, but no, it is not very realistic.

 

[Xerxes1979]

^Do you have a brother or sister? Are they genetically identical? Hint: if the sibling is of the opposite sex as you, you can conclusively determine that he or she is not, and need not go to the expense of a DNA lab. This is because gametes are produced through meiosis, which reduces the haploid germ line cells to diploid cells with a halved chromosome count.

Every sperm is different. Millions of sperm compete for the same egg in every coupling--assuming they're not rerouted (hot), physically blocked, chemically stymied, or whatever, so that another try can be made some other time with an entirely different set of gametes. The odds of a genetically identical result emerging from a second attempt by the same parents are astronomical. About one in ten trillion.

Not impossible, but no, it is not very realistic.

Science for the win

 

[borgfan8of5]

Thats got to be the most unrealistic approach to this situation possible. What if a shocking news story was on the T.V. and raised eyebrows, does that change the fact that someone still went to dinner later that night with a friend, or a date. Just because one thing happened over 100 years before his birth.

^Do you have a brother or sister? Are they genetically identical? Hint: if the sibling is of the opposite sex as you, you can conclusively determine that he or she is not, and need not go to the expense of a DNA lab. This is because gametes are produced through meiosis, which reduces the haploid germ line cells to diploid cells with a halved chromosome count.

Every sperm is different. Millions of sperm compete for the same egg in every coupling--assuming they're not rerouted (hot), physically blocked, chemically stymied, or whatever, so that another try can be made some other time with an entirely different set of gametes. The odds of a genetically identical result emerging from a second attempt by the same parents are astronomical. About one in ten trillion.

Not impossible, but no, it is not very realistic.

Again, The circumstances of his conception will still be the same, at the same time, in the same place, and the same sperm will fertilize the same egg. You are making an argument that is completely irrelevant.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Again, The circumstances of his conception will still be the same, at the same time, in the same place, and the same sperm will fertilize the same egg. You are making an argument that is completely irrelevant.

Picard was born in 2305. How can you dismiss 70+ years of butterfly effect on a galatic scale? The course or wars, instellar trade and science will all be greatly altered. Even with the caveat of Mrs. and Mr. Picard meeting why would he have the same facial features, eye color or the baldness gene turned on or off? Don't you think these might radically change such a person?

Do you think that most people alive today born after 1963 would be the same biologically regardless if Kennedy was killed?

 

[borgfan8of5]

Again, The circumstances of his conception will still be the same, at the same time, in the same place, and the same sperm will fertilize the same egg. You are making an argument that is completely irrelevant.

Picard was born in 2305. How can you dismiss 40 years of huge buttefly effect on a galatic scale? The course or wars, instellar trade and science will all be greatly altered. Even with the caveat of Mrs. and Mr. Picard meeting why would he have the same facial features, eye color or the baldness gene turned on or off? Don't you think these might radically change such a person?

Do you think that most people alive today born after 1963 are the same biologically regardless if Kennedy was killed?

probably, it's not like kennedy's assasination determined when people wanted to have kids. Even though a few people will be different and may never exist, the majority of people will still exist.

 

[apenpaap]

If you´re conceived a day later, your birthday does not just fall one day later, but your entire genetic structure changes. This is because sperm cells are very shortlived, and therefore the cell that would´ve conceived you would be dead or much weaker and slower the next day. How would the destruction of a starship make this happen, you may ask. Perhaps, in the original timeline, on october 12th 2304, a descendant of someone who died in the destruction of the Kelvin got into a car accident with Maurice Picard, which caused the both of them to be busy working out the ensurance and stuff all night, which meant Maurice Picard couldn't "be with" his wife that night, meaning Jean-Luc Picard was conceived on october 13th, 2304. With the destuction of the Kelvin, the descendant was never born, and thus never got into a car accident with Maurice Picard, meaning Jean-Luc Picard gets a different DNA set.
And that's just speaking about the destruction of the Kelvin. After all, Nero destroyed something else as well, which wil have a much bigger impact.

 

[Anwar]

Didn't Abrams say that TNG+'s characters still exist in the new timeline? That lends credence to the Farscape Rubber Band theory.

 

[borgfan8of5]

If you´re conceived a day later, your birthday does not just fall one day later, but your entire genetic structure changes. This is because sperm cells are very shortlived, and therefore the cell that would´ve conceived you would be dead or much weaker and slower the next day. How would the destruction of a starship make this happen, you may ask. Perhaps, in the original timeline, on october 12th 2304, a descendant of someone who died in the destruction of the Kelvin got into a car accident with Maurice Picard, which caused the both of them to be busy working out the ensurance and stuff all night, which meant Maurice Picard couldn't "be with" his wife that night, meaning Jean-Luc Picard was conceived on october 13th, 2304. With the destuction of the Kelvin, the descendant was never born, and thus never got into a car accident with Maurice Picard, meaning Jean-Luc Picard gets a different DNA set.
And that's just speaking about the destruction of the Kelvin. After all, Nero destroyed something else as well, which wil have a much bigger impact.

Again, there is a very small chance that one of picards parents were killed/ didn't meet spouse/conceive the child on a different day. Maybe one of his ancestors was killed/never met their spouse, but it still doesnt' change the fact that in all likelihood there should be little to no difference from timeline to timeline after 100 years or so. It's like saying, what if the titanic would have never sunk, of course some things in our society would have been different, some people would have never existed, but are you saying that the vast majority of us would be different/non existant. And don't say the stupid science crap again, I know how biology works, it's pretty simple stuff overall.

 

[borgfan8of5]

Didn't Abrams say that TNG+'s characters still exist in the new timeline? That lends credence to the Farscape Rubber Band theory.

Thats what I'm trying to say!!!