Hi all,
tl;dr: just read questions 1, 2, 3 or 4 and explain it to me, thx.
I have some struggle with DIS, especially seasons 1 and 2. Now, there seem to be a lot of people here that liked these seasons/stories, so I guess it is the ideal place for me to gather information to check/reevaluate my opinion.
Although I don't like many of the design decisions (e.g. the new Klingon/"Space Orc" masks that seem to severely inhibit the actors from speaking) and disregard for previous canon, these are not parts that weight heaviest on my opinion about DIS. And there are additional general problems in dialog (e.g. people shouldn't constantly say that they are super-clever - especially if their actions are clearly proving the opposite) and motivation (only the bad guys give any reasoning for their actions, the protagonists just do what they do without any reasoning). Also, I think the season does not capture the spirit of Star Trek - but that's a philosophical discussion for another thread, too.
The biggest problem (that this thread is devoted to) are the many parts of the plot that I consider illogical - and which therefore destroy the suspension of disbelief.
Now, the people here that liked these seasons/stories probably have some explanations that I missed.
Note: I have watched all four seasons of DIS, so feel free to reference any episode that is helpful for your argument.
So, I would appreciate if you would take your time to answer these questions.
1.
I. In the pilot it is made clear that there were virtually no contact between the Federation and the Klingons for a century.[1][2] And most of the Federation reactions are based on this fact.
On the other hand
II. Not only have Michael's parents been killed by Klingons (which Georgiou seems to know[3])
and the school computer testing pupil Michael for recent Klingon activity and trivia[4], but
III. the constant conflict between and approaches of the Federation towards the Klingons are the main motivation/argument of T'Kuvma for his quest to start the war.[5]
T'Kuvma is even so familiar with Federation behaviour, that he has figured out their catchphrase and knows exactly when they will express it.[6]
Q: How do you make sense of that?
2.
I. Six months after the battle on the binary stars, the Sarcophagus is still at the position of the battle field - defenseless.
II. The sarcophagus is the only ship that has the cloaking screen that is crucial for this war. This is a fact that both, Klingons and Federation, are aware of.
III. The federation considers this star system theirs (as pointed out in the pilot). Obviously, many federation ships were present after the battle of the binary stars - e.g. to rescue the crew of the Shenzhou. They even salvaged random stuff (like the last will and the telescope of Georgiou).
Q: So why did no one go get the Sarcophagus and this technology crucial for survival for six months?
3.
L'Rell transformed Voq into Tyler (I guess implanting memories of the real Ash Tyler that presumably was killed at the battle of the binary stars*) to make him a sleeper/spy on a Federation ship. What exactly was the plan for Voq? I.e. what was he intended to accomplish?
2a) Since L'Rell staged the prison break of Tyler with Lorca, why did she walk into their escape path? Did she plan to be killed like the other Klingons that were in the designated escape path?
* I assume that there was a real Ash Tyler, because otherwise, Ash Tyler would have been arrested 10 minutes after stepping aboard the Discovery when Saru would have announced "Our database shows that no Ash Tyler ever served in Starfleet. So, obviously, you are a spy!"
4.
What was Lorca's plan all along? How did his actions actually be predictably helpful to achieve his goals?
===
Ok, let's start with these main questions. If you feel that this is not enough, then I have listed some more things from the first five episodes listed below. I appreciate any additional insight for any or all of the points.
===
Some smaller oberservations (from the first five episodes) that puzzled me (actually, there were much more, but I skipped the detailed observation). Feel free to comment on them, if you have an explanation why the observation is not that off-key as I think.
DIS 1x01+1x02:
A. T'Kuvma summons the leaders of all Klingon houses by activating the beacon. All of them appear at the same moment - and even before the Starfleet reinforcements that had been called earlier.
B. During a tense space confrontation, the first officer (Burnham) leaves the bridge to call her dad.
C. Georgiou is stating that the Shenzhou is no match for the Sarcophagus.[7] Burnham's opinion is that Klingons want to fight and that one can prevent war by getting their respect if one gives them the fight by firing first. This would logically result in the loss of the Shenzhou - but if Burnham is right - prevent war. Nevertheless, Burnham tells that she is specifically trying to save Georgiou and (looking at the Shenzhou crew) all of them.[8]
But isn't her plan actually to sacrifice exactly these people to save the "Victims of your imaginary war" (as Georgiou puts it)?
D. Not a plot hole, but probably unnecessarily confusing: Burnham's parents get killed and shortly after her new school get bombed by terrorists. Now, in the pilot the audience gets told the first thing (but not shown) and shown the second (but not told about it). Only some episodes later it is mentioned that the bombing was a different thing done by terrorists.
E. Burnham can communicate with Sarek over lightyears distance with her pure mind. That seems to be a quite handy way to communicate. Every starfleet ship should have a crew member that is mind-bind* to a vulcan - that way they could always communicate with zero delay even if the communications array is down or jammed or whatever. * I called it mind-bind, because I guess that this does not automatically happen after any mind-meld.
F. T'Kuvma accepts the cease fire, but then immediately breaks it. That is basically the most obvious unhonorable behaviour one can do. But I think the DIS Klingons never use the word honor anyway, so maybe it's only Worf that has a sense of honor.
G. When Burnham and Georgiou beam over to the Sarcophagus, their phasers are set to stun, but when Burnham uses it on T'Kuvma, it is set to kill. Did she intentionally change the setting (presumably losing time during a situation Georgiou needed fast help)?
DIS 1x03:
H. Did Lorca cause the death of the shuttle pilot intentionally (to get Burnham on board) and no one cares?
I. Why are these crew members with blank-badges prominently featured?[9] What is their function on board?
J. Did they remove the entry-control via "breath print" after this episode?[10] I mean would be a good idea, because biometric authentication is known to be fundamentally flawed and unsecure. But why introducing it on a room that has central meaning over the rest of the series and having it gone without explanation after one use?
K. Burnham accuses Lorca of illegally creating bioweapons, a crime that would make Lorca not only loose his command, but going to prison for a long time. Lorca then asks Burnham to step into what she thinks to be the bioweapon test chamber. And Burnham just does it without hesitation!?
L. At this time, the Discovery spore-drive is not able to jump over more than hundreds of kilometers[11], but Lorca lets Burnham jump in the chamber between multiple planets!?[12]
DIS 1x04:
M. Lorca calls Burnham to the bridge during a battle exercise. Then he reprimands the crew that they are not focused on the battle exercise.
N. Saru can predict with precision to the second(!) how long the federation outpost can withheld the Klingon attack.
P. After the colony on Corvan has lost its shields, the Discovery dumps explosives on the battle scene and jumps away... they don't even see whether the Klingons are destroyed; only thing they can be sure of is that fire storm will rain down on the shield-less colony after they left (the explosives and the remains of the Klingon ships).
DIS 1x05:
Q. So, Starfleet thinks that Lorca has blown up his previous ship, the Buran, with all people on board.[15] And Starfleet reacts by immediately giving him the command of the most important war research project and nearly unlimited freedom for his actions!?
R. How did L'Rell know that the Discovery appeared from thin air over Corvan? Did any Klingons survive the short surprise battle with the Discovery to report back to L'Rell?
S. The Discovery can identify from some light years away on which ship Lorca is.[16] But the Klingons can't even see the Discovery when the distance is less than one AU.[17]
T. How does Mirror Stamets make it into the mirror of Stamets in this episode?
[1]
tl;dr: just read questions 1, 2, 3 or 4 and explain it to me, thx.
I have some struggle with DIS, especially seasons 1 and 2. Now, there seem to be a lot of people here that liked these seasons/stories, so I guess it is the ideal place for me to gather information to check/reevaluate my opinion.
Although I don't like many of the design decisions (e.g. the new Klingon/"Space Orc" masks that seem to severely inhibit the actors from speaking) and disregard for previous canon, these are not parts that weight heaviest on my opinion about DIS. And there are additional general problems in dialog (e.g. people shouldn't constantly say that they are super-clever - especially if their actions are clearly proving the opposite) and motivation (only the bad guys give any reasoning for their actions, the protagonists just do what they do without any reasoning). Also, I think the season does not capture the spirit of Star Trek - but that's a philosophical discussion for another thread, too.
The biggest problem (that this thread is devoted to) are the many parts of the plot that I consider illogical - and which therefore destroy the suspension of disbelief.
Now, the people here that liked these seasons/stories probably have some explanations that I missed.
Note: I have watched all four seasons of DIS, so feel free to reference any episode that is helpful for your argument.
So, I would appreciate if you would take your time to answer these questions.
1.
I. In the pilot it is made clear that there were virtually no contact between the Federation and the Klingons for a century.[1][2] And most of the Federation reactions are based on this fact.
On the other hand
II. Not only have Michael's parents been killed by Klingons (which Georgiou seems to know[3])
and the school computer testing pupil Michael for recent Klingon activity and trivia[4], but
III. the constant conflict between and approaches of the Federation towards the Klingons are the main motivation/argument of T'Kuvma for his quest to start the war.[5]
T'Kuvma is even so familiar with Federation behaviour, that he has figured out their catchphrase and knows exactly when they will express it.[6]
Q: How do you make sense of that?
2.
I. Six months after the battle on the binary stars, the Sarcophagus is still at the position of the battle field - defenseless.
II. The sarcophagus is the only ship that has the cloaking screen that is crucial for this war. This is a fact that both, Klingons and Federation, are aware of.
III. The federation considers this star system theirs (as pointed out in the pilot). Obviously, many federation ships were present after the battle of the binary stars - e.g. to rescue the crew of the Shenzhou. They even salvaged random stuff (like the last will and the telescope of Georgiou).
Q: So why did no one go get the Sarcophagus and this technology crucial for survival for six months?
3.
L'Rell transformed Voq into Tyler (I guess implanting memories of the real Ash Tyler that presumably was killed at the battle of the binary stars*) to make him a sleeper/spy on a Federation ship. What exactly was the plan for Voq? I.e. what was he intended to accomplish?
2a) Since L'Rell staged the prison break of Tyler with Lorca, why did she walk into their escape path? Did she plan to be killed like the other Klingons that were in the designated escape path?
* I assume that there was a real Ash Tyler, because otherwise, Ash Tyler would have been arrested 10 minutes after stepping aboard the Discovery when Saru would have announced "Our database shows that no Ash Tyler ever served in Starfleet. So, obviously, you are a spy!"
4.
What was Lorca's plan all along? How did his actions actually be predictably helpful to achieve his goals?
===
Ok, let's start with these main questions. If you feel that this is not enough, then I have listed some more things from the first five episodes listed below. I appreciate any additional insight for any or all of the points.
===
Some smaller oberservations (from the first five episodes) that puzzled me (actually, there were much more, but I skipped the detailed observation). Feel free to comment on them, if you have an explanation why the observation is not that off-key as I think.
DIS 1x01+1x02:
A. T'Kuvma summons the leaders of all Klingon houses by activating the beacon. All of them appear at the same moment - and even before the Starfleet reinforcements that had been called earlier.
B. During a tense space confrontation, the first officer (Burnham) leaves the bridge to call her dad.
C. Georgiou is stating that the Shenzhou is no match for the Sarcophagus.[7] Burnham's opinion is that Klingons want to fight and that one can prevent war by getting their respect if one gives them the fight by firing first. This would logically result in the loss of the Shenzhou - but if Burnham is right - prevent war. Nevertheless, Burnham tells that she is specifically trying to save Georgiou and (looking at the Shenzhou crew) all of them.[8]
But isn't her plan actually to sacrifice exactly these people to save the "Victims of your imaginary war" (as Georgiou puts it)?
D. Not a plot hole, but probably unnecessarily confusing: Burnham's parents get killed and shortly after her new school get bombed by terrorists. Now, in the pilot the audience gets told the first thing (but not shown) and shown the second (but not told about it). Only some episodes later it is mentioned that the bombing was a different thing done by terrorists.
E. Burnham can communicate with Sarek over lightyears distance with her pure mind. That seems to be a quite handy way to communicate. Every starfleet ship should have a crew member that is mind-bind* to a vulcan - that way they could always communicate with zero delay even if the communications array is down or jammed or whatever. * I called it mind-bind, because I guess that this does not automatically happen after any mind-meld.
F. T'Kuvma accepts the cease fire, but then immediately breaks it. That is basically the most obvious unhonorable behaviour one can do. But I think the DIS Klingons never use the word honor anyway, so maybe it's only Worf that has a sense of honor.
G. When Burnham and Georgiou beam over to the Sarcophagus, their phasers are set to stun, but when Burnham uses it on T'Kuvma, it is set to kill. Did she intentionally change the setting (presumably losing time during a situation Georgiou needed fast help)?
DIS 1x03:
H. Did Lorca cause the death of the shuttle pilot intentionally (to get Burnham on board) and no one cares?
I. Why are these crew members with blank-badges prominently featured?[9] What is their function on board?
J. Did they remove the entry-control via "breath print" after this episode?[10] I mean would be a good idea, because biometric authentication is known to be fundamentally flawed and unsecure. But why introducing it on a room that has central meaning over the rest of the series and having it gone without explanation after one use?
K. Burnham accuses Lorca of illegally creating bioweapons, a crime that would make Lorca not only loose his command, but going to prison for a long time. Lorca then asks Burnham to step into what she thinks to be the bioweapon test chamber. And Burnham just does it without hesitation!?
L. At this time, the Discovery spore-drive is not able to jump over more than hundreds of kilometers[11], but Lorca lets Burnham jump in the chamber between multiple planets!?[12]
DIS 1x04:
M. Lorca calls Burnham to the bridge during a battle exercise. Then he reprimands the crew that they are not focused on the battle exercise.
N. Saru can predict with precision to the second(!) how long the federation outpost can withheld the Klingon attack.
O. Voq needs a dilithium processor to survive. The Shenzhou has a dilithium processor, but Voq is appalled by the idea of using parts of it.[13] Luckily for him, Kol returns with fully-operational gadgets and joins Voq.[14] So, Voq could easily ask Kol to give him a dilithium processor, now that he has joined his course. But, no, wait, instead Voq goes to the Shenzhou to perform blasphemy!?Saru said:
P. After the colony on Corvan has lost its shields, the Discovery dumps explosives on the battle scene and jumps away... they don't even see whether the Klingons are destroyed; only thing they can be sure of is that fire storm will rain down on the shield-less colony after they left (the explosives and the remains of the Klingon ships).
DIS 1x05:
Q. So, Starfleet thinks that Lorca has blown up his previous ship, the Buran, with all people on board.[15] And Starfleet reacts by immediately giving him the command of the most important war research project and nearly unlimited freedom for his actions!?
R. How did L'Rell know that the Discovery appeared from thin air over Corvan? Did any Klingons survive the short surprise battle with the Discovery to report back to L'Rell?
S. The Discovery can identify from some light years away on which ship Lorca is.[16] But the Klingons can't even see the Discovery when the distance is less than one AU.[17]
T. How does Mirror Stamets make it into the mirror of Stamets in this episode?
[1]
[2]Georgiou said:
[3]Admiral said:
[4]Georgiou said:
[5]Computer said:
[6]T'Kuvma said:
[7]DIS 1x02 said:
[8]Georgiou said:
[9]Burnham said:
[10]Stone said:
[11]Woman said:
[12]Lorca said:
[13]Lorca said:
[14]Voq said:
[15]DIS 1x04 said:
[16]DIS 1x05 said:
[17]DIS 1x05 said:
DIS 1x05 said:
