Questions "Duet"

[Timo]

Man, I really seem to have freaked out a lot of people here...

...Which does appear to be the average reaction, QED and all that. Humans just aren't built to be tolerant. (Which is still better than the average amongst Terran species, as tolerance is a definite non-survival tactic in procreation.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tosk]

Man, I really seem to have freaked out a lot of people here...

Yeah, that tends to happen when someone makes an ignorant, uninstigated attack on other people.

People can be so touchy!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah...you went over the line, Timo. Man up and take responsibility.

 

[Timo]

I do take full responsibility on describing Down victims as freaks - after all, the whole point of my argument was that Downs are freaks in today's world (like it or not), by the very definition of that word.

The word exists, and I mused on the possibility that it might get applied on us poor humans in general in the Trek universe, for the very same reason it gets applied (like it or not) on people with visible growth disorders here on Earth - and, in terms of this analogy, specifically on people with the characteristics of the Down syndrome because that's what counts as "unnervingly bland features" when one uses the human majority as the yardstick.

I've been known to use words like nigger, Jap and faggot a lot, too - always to describe the context where these words serve as insults, but never with the purpose of insulting. Please understand that no insult was intended on this occasion, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Man, I really seem to have freaked out a lot of people here...

Yeah, that tends to happen when someone makes an ignorant, uninstigated attack on other people.

People can be so touchy!

And this was completely unnecessary too. He didn't 'attack' anyone. A long-time model poster on these boards made an ill-worded comment without thinking and netted himself a 'friendly' from me, but he did not 'attack' anyone on this forum.

Now, unless someone died and made you mod (and since I am writing this, that has not happened), please stop the backseat modding (which incidentally WAS worded as a personal attack) or you will net yourself a warning for trolling.

Thanks.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Yeah...you went over the line, Timo. Man up and take responsibility.

Not helping either.

You have already said this upstream. You are offended. We get it. Now let me deal with it. I do not need comments from the peanut gallery that only serve to muddy the waters.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I do take full responsibility on describing Down victims as freaks - after all, the whole point of my argument was that Downs are freaks in today's world (like it or not), by the very definition of that word.

The word exists, and I mused on the possibility that it might get applied on us poor humans in general in the Trek universe, for the very same reason it gets applied (like it or not) on people with visible growth disorders here on Earth - and, in terms of this analogy, specifically on people with the characteristics of the Down syndrome because that's what counts as "unnervingly bland features" when one uses the human majority as the yardstick.

I've been known to use words like nigger, Jap and faggot a lot, too - always to describe the context where these words serve as insults, but never with the purpose of insulting. Please understand that no insult was intended on this occasion, either.

Timo Saloniemi

Timo - I see what you are saying. At least I think I do: That society treats anyone who is 'different' from them as 'freaks'. Not that you hate or look down on 'different' (for whatever reason) people yourself, but that society, whether we like it or not, treats anyone who is different from them...well....differently...and often this puts them at a further disadvantage.

Is that what you are saying? I took from this that you are not making a value judgment yourself, but are simply stating that others in society (indeed, society as a whole) DO make such value judgments, whether they admit to it or not....or are even aware of it or not.

Is that what I am to understand you as saying?

I want to make sure about this before I address your comments further.

Guys - here is the deal. Whether we like or or not, the world is a nasty place. There is prejudice against all manner of people - based on sex, race, religion, sexual preference, physical deformities, even such things as weight and hair loss.

Now, this is the reality of the situation we live in - at least in the US. I have run up against some of these prejudices myself, and I know they are real (I am a women who was, especially when I entered it, in a 'male' profession, and my religious background is also not Protestant, the majority religion in the US...which also influences politics, by the way). Bias & prejudice shouldn't exist, but they do. And pretending they don't exist...or refusing discuss them in real terms in the harsh language of the provocateurs is not helping matters at all.

All the TIME on these boards and IRL I see really nasty slams at the overweight. I mean, really NASTY comments. As a middle aged woman who, despite running 20 miles a week and eating healthy still struggles with weight (I have a really slow metabolism, even with all the running, spinning, and weights I do, and am about 20 lbs overweight right now, despite the fact that I could kick the asses of most of the guys making such remarks if I were to run against them in a 10K) It seems that the PC mindset has not caught up to what we are and aren't allowed to actually SAY when it comes to the overweight. There are even nightclubs who have guys screening the WOMEN (not the men, by the way) for 'fatties' and not allowing women who some bouncer deems as 'too fat' in the door.

This gives us a glimpse into the REAL mindsets of a lot of people. Because you can bet your bottom dollar that the same people who are openly referring to overweight people has 'fatties' or whatever and not letting overweight women into clubs, are the same ones who quietly think of the mentally challenged as 'freaks'....even if they don't say it out loud.

I'm not saying it's right - because it's NOT. But looking at the areas where political correctness has not yet caught on (and the overweight is a prime example of such a place) clearly shows that people are STILL mean, disrespectful, cruel and hurtful by nature. And yes - they ARE. Even if the PC society in which we live does not allow them to say what they are really thinking when it comes to gay people, Muslims, Jews, women, people of color, the mentally challenged, or others.

If you are not a white, straight male in America...I've got news for you - SOMEONE out there hates you or believes you are inferior for no reason at all, other than that you are different from them.

It's the way it is. And no amount of brushing it under the rug with PC lingo is going to change that. In fact, it makes it worse, because it makes it harder to identify the asshats who think in these ways. In some ways, I wish these jerks were allowed to say what they really thought. Then at least gay men, 20 lb overweight women, African Americans and Jewish people would be able to clearly identify our enemies...and treat them accordingly.

 

[Praxius]

I'd argue that Cardasians age much slower than humans.

...or Bajorans, at least. Look at Dukat in "Wrongs Darker..."
He looks pretty much the same when Nerys was young as he does when she is fully grown.

Agreed.... Dukat in many of the flashbacks to when he ran the station show him almost identical in appearance then as he did in current time, which could suggest they don't age as quickly as humans...... or it's just a simple issue of not having Botox readily available back when filming

Man, I really seem to have freaked out a lot of people here...

...Which does appear to be the average reaction, QED and all that. Humans just aren't built to be tolerant. (Which is still better than the average amongst Terran species, as tolerance is a definite non-survival tactic in procreation.)

Timo Saloniemi

Speak for yourself and not others.... I'm very tolerant, however it can be easily argued that your view on Tolerance being a non-survival tactic (in procreation) is actually quite the narrow view/understanding on the finer details of pro-creation itself, if you truly believe that.

But that's for another thread/topic.

 

[Praxius]

Double Post.

Added:

....... Guys - here is the deal. Whether we like or or not, the world is a nasty place. There is prejudice against all manner of people - based on sex, race, religion, sexual preference, physical deformities, even such things as weight and hair loss.

Now, this is the reality of the situation we live in - at least in the US. I have run up against some of these prejudices myself, and I know they are real (I am a women who was, especially when I entered it, in a 'male' profession, and my religious background is also not Protestant, the majority religion in the US...which also influences politics, by the way). Bias & prejudice shouldn't exist, but they do. And pretending they don't exist...or refusing discuss them in real terms in the harsh language of the provocateurs is not helping matters at all.

When specified as being in the "US" sure, I can understand someone generalizing their own society and community.... I'm from Canada, thus I can not fairly judge such claims as being accurate for US society or not, other then looking in from the outside.

However, while I'm not offended, I'd certainly like to point out that generalizing "People" and "Society" as a whole based on what occurs in the US, is short sighted to those in here from other countries..... ie: my previous comment on "Speak for Yourself, not Others."

While I understand your point of view in your described background mentioned above, and even I can't say where I live is totally perfect either..... to even imply all humans all around the world are at best, like US society (or worse) is just plain ignorant.

If people in the US consider people with disabilities like Down syndrome as freaks..... then you guys in the US would know, not I.... but what I do know, is that where I live, they are not considered that, except perhaps in the eyes of a small hand full of ignorant teenagers.

I'm not trying to trash the US or anybody in here, but it'd be nice not to be painted with the same brush that people paint the US with, because many of the ideals and views of people in the US do not come close to my own views..... not from what I see and not from what I hear in here from people who are from the US.

All the TIME on these boards and IRL I see really nasty slams at the overweight. I mean, really NASTY comments. As a middle aged woman who, despite running 20 miles a week and eating healthy still struggles with weight (I have a really slow metabolism, even with all the running, spinning, and weights I do, and am about 20 lbs overweight right now, despite the fact that I could kick the asses of most of the guys making such remarks if I were to run against them in a 10K) It seems that the PC mindset has not caught up to what we are and aren't allowed to actually SAY when it comes to the overweight. There are even nightclubs who have guys screening the WOMEN (not the men, by the way) for 'fatties' and not allowing women who some bouncer deems as 'too fat' in the door.

This gives us a glimpse into the REAL mindsets of a lot of people. Because you can bet your bottom dollar that the same people who are openly referring to overweight people has 'fatties' or whatever and not letting overweight women into clubs, are the same ones who quietly think of the mentally challenged as 'freaks'....even if they don't say it out loud.

I'm not saying it's right - because it's NOT. But looking at the areas where political correctness has not yet caught on (and the overweight is a prime example of such a place) clearly shows that people are STILL mean, disrespectful, cruel and hurtful by nature. And yes - they ARE. Even if the PC society in which we live does not allow them to say what they are really thinking when it comes to gay people, Muslims, Jews, women, people of color, the mentally challenged, or others.

And this is where I have to disagree. I would have agreed with your points above, if you didn't say "People are STILL mean, disrespectful, cruel and hurtful by nature."

You could have said some.... or half.... or most people, but saying People alone and saying the above is in their nature, takes myself, you and everyone else and tosses them all into the same category.

Now you pointed out before you started that in places where Political Correctness still hasn't taken full grasp, that people are still ignorant, racist and all that.... but also keep in mind that those same places are still in an older mentality that they need to grow out of.

Nature has nothing to do with it..... it's human conditioning, it's what you grew up listening to from your parents, family, community, etc.... nobody is born this way, thus it's not in anybody's nature. Take a new born baby of any race and stick it in a room with a group of other babies of other races, shapes and sizes, and you won't see each child recoil into the corners of the room screaming to get away from the different looking children..... they will play with one another.

If a child is raised to find something as wrong, they will believe it to be wrong and after a while it'll be very hard to teach them otherwise because they spent their whole life believing it to be true.

The whole point in forcing, by law, people from saying racist or otherwise prejudice remarks, or judging people based on the same things, is so that even though those same ignorant and hateful people may still exist and may still believe what they believe, it helps the next generation in preventing them growing up seeing these things as common place, everyday remarks, giving the impression that being this intolerant, being this short sighted, racist, sexist, etc..... is acceptable, which it is not.

Some communities, some States, some Provinces, some Countries have worked long and hard to brush off the past prejudices of past generations.... some better then others.

Do "these type of people" still exist? Yes.... are they a problem? Yes.

But not all of us are like "These People".... Not everything that occurs in the US, occurs in every other country.... not every other country in the world is worse with these things then the US, in fact some nations are better in some aspects.

If you are not a white, straight male in America...I've got news for you - SOMEONE out there hates you or believes you are inferior for no reason at all, other than that you are different from them.

It's the way it is. And no amount of brushing it under the rug with PC lingo is going to change that. In fact, it makes it worse, because it makes it harder to identify the asshats who think in these ways. In some ways, I wish these jerks were allowed to say what they really thought. Then at least gay men, 20 lb overweight women, African Americans and Jewish people would be able to clearly identify our enemies...and treat them accordingly.

And that would solve..... what exactly?

A difference I see between Canada and the US in one aspect, is the actual level of Freedom of Speech each permits before someone is crossing the line.

While I see plenty in the US argue to total free speech, regardless of what is being said.... here in Canada, there are limits to what someone can say before legal action is taken and there are chances what you say can be attributed as a Hate Crime or Hate Speech.

If you are turned down from a job because of your race, sexual preference, gender, religious beliefs or even weight, or if you are refused from going into a club/bar because of any of the above, or if you're just walking down the street and someone yells something at you based on any of the above, they all can be charged with a crime and can be punished.

Doing nothing and allowing these people to continue their bigoted ways without any form of penalty only allows them to keep doing what they want, freely express their views as being correct, spread their filth to other people, keep you down in society because of it, and since nobody is getting any form of punishment for doing something that is clearly and obviously wrong in our societies that are supposed to be all about equality and tolerance, then all that's being done is a society giving the impression to everybody else that these things are ok.... and if they're ok, then there must be some truth to what is being said against a certain race, gender, sexual preference, etc.

When you don't even have your government/society keeping these clowns in check and these people are continually allowed to keep doing what they're doing at your and every other minority's expense, then don't expect anything to change.

All that will happen in this situation is that these clowns will be continually allowed to keep minorities down in society based on their racist and bigoted ways, to the point many will start taking matters into their own hands and retaliate in the only ways they know they can.... physical responses.

And when that happens, do you think things are going to improve any?

Things will only get worse for both sides...... and for the minorities, they'll get the worst of it.

So long as the law and the government just stands by and lets this continually happen, there is no one authority telling everybody what is right and what is wrong.... nobody is seriously punished, thus there is no incentive for anybody to learn and understand why something is wrong and why they shouldn't do it.

If people can not understand that it is wrong because they wouldn't like the same thing done to them, then they will understand that it is wrong by law and if they do it, they will face legal action and be punished accordingly.

However, I don't mean to offend those of you living in the US, but the intolerance levels in the US seem to be much more different then where I live.

Racial profiling at airports, what TrekGirl said above about bars/clubs and overweight people, the still very active issues between natives, african americans, people from mexican backgrounds, Islam, anybody not of the Christian faith, allowing such groups as the KKK to even exist in the first place.....

I mean.... some would argue that these groups like the KKK and these levels of intolerance in all aspects exist because of various political and social reasons, yet one could equally argue that all these political and social issues exist because of intolerance and groups such as the KKK whom are continually allowed to exist and practice their BS freely and openly.

Allowing them to express their intolerance is just as bad as saying they're right and it risks the next generation in adopting the same mentality.... and the next, and the next.....

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ I am not going to address every sentence of your post, because I don't think you caught my point on a good chunk of it.

Suffice it to say that I do not believe that prejudice and bigotry simply 'go away', just because people are barred from being open about it.

All PC lingo does is push the bigotry underground...so that the victims can no longer identify their enemies.

Do you seriously think that making a law outlawing the use of the terms "nigger", "retard", "Kike", "WOP", "Wacko Woman's Libber", "Pollock", "Faggot" and "Fattie" solves the underlying PROBLEM? Because I don't. All such a law does, IMO as someone who meets a couple of of those 'descriptions', is make it harder for the victims of such individuals to see them coming. Make no mistake - they STILL discriminate every time we turn in a job application or do anything that REALLY matters in life. It's just that now we can't see them coming or call them out on their REAL motivations, because of the 'sticks and stones' laws (or PC lingo police) that simply force them to make up other bullshit 'reasons' for not hiring us, not promoting us, not paying us equally to those doing the same work, not allowing us unto their country clubs, or whatever.

The namecalling is only a symptom of a much larger, underlying problem. And masking the symptoms of disease does not heal the disease - it only makes it that much harder to recognize it's seriousness.

Yes - we can all go crazy in shock and horror every time a Muslim is referred to as a 'raghead' by some idiot in the general population. But do you think that outlawing use of the term 'raghead' is going to stop the guy from hating Muslims? Or worse still, stop the racial profiling done by our own GOVERNMENT - the SAME government who makes these laws condemning racial bias?

My point was that masking the symptoms of the disease that is "Hate" is only making the rest of us more passive about fighting the REAL fight here. We think we are winning a war that we have not even begun to FIGHT yet - not REALLY.

Thinking that prejudice against African Americans is the thing of the past, just because you haven't heard anyone use the term 'nigger' this week is a mistake. And yet, that is pretty nearly the argument you hear from those who oppose measures like affirmative action. Lulling ourselves into a false sense of security on these issues, simply because it is no longer acceptable to use the term 'nigger' is wrong - and will cost us dearly in the long run. But I believe that often, we ARE lulled into that false sense of security by this PC lingo stuff. Otherwise, reasonably intelligent people would NOT be saying stuff like 'Hey look - racial bias against African Americans no longer exists in civilized society! Yeah...the KKK may do it...but they are just a fringe group. You never hear 'good' people refer to African Americans as 'niggers' anymore - so prejudice does not exist outside of the wacko fringe like the KKK. Aren't we EVOLVED!!!!" And they all stand around patting each other on the back...while they hire the less qualified white guy. And NEVER stop and consider their own racially biased motivation for doing so.

Shit - thanks to this PC crap, prejudiced people do not even think they are prejudiced anymore! They no longer discuss 'niggers' and 'cheap Jews'...and because of that, they honestly think they are tolerant. So much has been made of WORDS that we have completely forgotten about the ATTITUDES that underlie those words. And until we address the attitudes, banning the words isn't gonna mean a damn thing - not with regard to anything that really matters past a slight case of 'hurt feelings'.

And I'm sorry...but if a society can tolerate nightclubs which bar individuals from entrance based on some flunky bouncer's determination of who is a 'fattie' and who is not...then no. We have no right at ALL to think of ourselves as 'evolved' or 'tolerant' or anything of the kind. Instead, we all need to take a good hard look at ourselves and face the fact that for all of the time we have spent (wasted?) addressing symptoms...the disease of discrimination and hate is still alive and well.

Oh...and by the way, I do NOT think this is a US-only problem. Certainly there is a lot of discrimination and prejudice all over the world - in some parts of the world, it is what racial purges and genocide are made of. In other parts of the world, it takes the form of endless squabbles and full-blown wars over religion. In other parts of the world, it takes the form of very strong taboos in society about letting 'outsiders' in to the inner circle of business or family. It takes many forms in many different parts of the world. And I do NOT believe that Canada is exempt either, for all of Canada's great qualities (and yes - I happen to like your country very much). It is true that I was addressing primarily the US in my initial post, because it is my country and the society in which I live, the business environment in which I function every day, etc. However, I will say that I have spent enough time living and working on both Russia and Japan to know that neither of those two countries are exempt - neither in the business world nor in issues regarding socializing, family life, etc.

I simply believe that for no other reason other than 'a natural fear of the unknown'..prejudice can crop up pretty much anywhere, any time. People fear what they do not understand - it is human nature. And that is why UNDERSTANDING - not PC lingo, is what is going to heal the disease of hate.

We can spend forever beating people up about words. But until we change their MINDS, not a whole lot will really change.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

^Yes, but the average human can live longer than that, though I'm not sure that Dr McCoy counts as 'average'...

Yes, but this 100-year-old Bajoran was played by an 58-year-old actress.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

PK--Sorry for losing my temper.

I would actually add one thing to your post where you say "If you are not a white, straight male..."

I would actually say that every single person in the world is hated by someone else for some factor they cannot control. Sad to say, I believe prejudice and bigotry are an absolute, universal trait and I would not exempt anyone from the necessity to recognize and combat it in themselves.

 

[Tosk]

please stop the backseat modding (which incidentally WAS worded as a personal attack) or you will net yourself a warning for trolling.

Thanks.

I wasn't consciously trying to 'backseat mod', I was just reacting to what was said.

Nevertheless, you have my apologies.

 

[Praxius]

^ I am not going to address every sentence of your post, because I don't think you caught my point on a good chunk of it.

Well I read every word......

Suffice it to say that I do not believe that prejudice and bigotry simply 'go away', just because people are barred from being open about it.

I never once said it will simply go away, nor did I suggest people simply ignore those who are committing the offenses.

All PC lingo does is push the bigotry underground...so that the victims can no longer identify their enemies.

Where you and I differ in this is in relation to the term "Enemies." It gives an impression that you purposely seek out and expect to always have enemies.

I imagine there are people who don't like me for being a white male, Irish, originally Roman Catholic, Canadian, or whatever other identity rubs someone the wrong way for whatever reason, but I'm not about to label them my enemy, nor am I going to purposely seek them out and fight/punish them.... life is too short to continually do that.

I suggested making sure the government and laws prevent these people from having a green light without consequence to say anything they want, force their own ignorant views on other people and to keep minorities down below them in society..... otherwise, expect nothing to change.

Do you seriously think that making a law outlawing the use of the terms "nigger", "retard", "Kike", "WOP", "Wacko Woman's Libber", "Pollock", "Faggot" and "Fattie" solves the underlying PROBLEM?

It's a small part to a much larger step, and it's a lot better then doing nothing..... and it's a lot better then going vigilante/taking matters into your own hands and retaliating against those who try and keep you down through their bigoted ways, because if one decides to seek revenge/retaliation against these people, then not only is someone no better then the original offender, but it also passes the message to their buddies and those who think like them that he/she was right in what they said about you.

It's not true, but they will certainly twist it that way to suit their own subjective agendas.

Because I don't. All such a law does, IMO as someone who meets a couple of of those 'descriptions', is make it harder for the victims of such individuals to see them coming. Make no mistake - they STILL discriminate every time we turn in a job application or do anything that REALLY matters in life. It's just that now we can't see them coming or call them out on their REAL motivations, because of the 'sticks and stones' laws (or PC lingo police) that simply force them to make up other bullshit 'reasons' for not hiring us, not promoting us, not paying us equally to those doing the same work, not allowing us unto their country clubs, or whatever.

I'm sorry but to me, none of that makes any sense.

You don't think such restrictions, laws and rights protections would work in any way other then to make these people hide their true feelings and intentions, thus I am assuming you mean there's no point in having them in the first place...... so then let's say they don't exist and someone decides to not hire you because of your gender, or your race or physical size.... they tell you why straight to your face with a smug superiority...... Then what?

What's your solution?

There's no laws against hate speech or hate crimes which this would qualify under, so you can't charge them or protest your position to anybody to get the job, or even have this guy fired...... so what would you do?

Punch them out? Call them racist or sexist names?

The namecalling is only a symptom of a much larger, underlying problem. And masking the symptoms of disease does not heal the disease - it only makes it that much harder to recognize it's seriousness.

What I was saying wasn't just about restricting what people say, ie: name calling..... Hate Crimes and Hate Speech go much further then just simple name calling.

What I was proposing wasn't some masking tactic to hide the truth from the public, on the contrary, what I support is a further exposure of these people, shove them into the public spotlight, charge them for the crimes they committed, show the rest of society that ignorant views and actions like these will not be tolerated.

A Recent Example:
Cross Burned on Nova Scotia Couple's Lawn
http://www.canada.com/news/Cross+burned+Nova+Scotia+couple+lawn/2597734/story.html

^ This isn't a common occurrence here where I live and this particular situation was an isolated incident between the couple and the lady's family who were ignorantly racist and didn't like her interracial marriage (which many suspect goes deeper then that)

When this first hit the news, not only what the local community out raged and shocked by this, but the entire province... then entire country heard about it, because it was something that rarely occurs anywhere in our society these days. They quickly found those suspected of the crime, arrested them and charged them..... and chances are, these people will have a hard time living in their old communities once the courts are done with them and they'll probably have to move elsewhere, because punishment for such idiotic crimes in our communities go well beyond just legal mumbo jumbo.

Nobody tried to hide this, nobody tried to sweep it under the carpet just to make everybody feel that their society is good or perfect.... it was exposed to the masses, people saw and read what happened, why, when, how, etc.... Nobody here wants people like this running around being allowed to burn crosses or chuck things through people's windows based on race, etc..... and in order to fight something, you first have to expose it..... that's what these sort of laws do.

Nobody is saying these things never happen, but with the right approach, over time, it can be greatly reduced and eventually some day, be nothing but a memory.... but it takes time.

Yes - we can all go crazy in shock and horror every time a Muslim is referred to as a 'raghead' by some idiot in the general population. But do you think that outlawing use of the term 'raghead' is going to stop the guy from hating Muslims? Or worse still, stop the racial profiling done by our own GOVERNMENT - the SAME government who makes these laws condemning racial bias?

It will not stop the guy from hating Muslims, but it will greatly help in making sure his hate stops at him and he can not spread that hatred so easily to other impressionable people or the younger generation, thus continuing his cycle of hatred.

I notice that some people give the impression that if something doesn't absolutely solve a problem right away, then it's a waste of time, or that it's somehow better to do nothing and let the problem fester even worse, then to reduce the problem significantly over a period of time.

Can you honestly say that our societies, even the US's society is just as bad today with intolerance then it was in say the 1920's? Certain progress has been made over the years, people fought for many different forms of equality, certain "PC" laws were put into place to protect the minorities from the majority who are in power (or were at the time)...... yes, problems still exist here and there in the world, even in our own communities.... but they have been improving and are still a hell of a lot better then a few decades ago..... and it will continue to get better.

My point was that masking the symptoms of the disease that is "Hate" is only making the rest of us more passive about fighting the REAL fight here. We think we are winning a war that we have not even begun to FIGHT yet - not REALLY.

That is where the problem lies in your view and my view. I never suggested "Masking" anything, but to expose to the public eye these incidences. When these things are exposed to the public, you will notice that the majority of the community surrounding you supports you, rather then opposes.

The couple in the above news report received tremendous amounts of support and I believe the community played a role in helping the police track down those responsible for this incident.

But what I still don't get is your continual use of the term "Fight"

How do you suggest fighting this problem? What does the term "Fight" mean to you in regards to this topic?

Thinking that prejudice against African Americans is the thing of the past, just because you haven't heard anyone use the term 'nigger' this week is a mistake. And yet, that is pretty nearly the argument you hear from those who oppose measures like affirmative action. Lulling ourselves into a false sense of security on these issues, simply because it is no longer acceptable to use the term 'nigger' is wrong - and will cost us dearly in the long run. But I believe that often, we ARE lulled into that false sense of security by this PC lingo stuff. Otherwise, reasonably intelligent people would NOT be saying stuff like 'Hey look - racial bias against African Americans no longer exists in civilized society! Yeah...the KKK may do it...but they are just a fringe group. You never hear 'good' people refer to African Americans as 'niggers' anymore - so prejudice does not exist outside of the wacko fringe like the KKK. Aren't we EVOLVED!!!!" And they all stand around patting each other on the back...while they hire the less qualified white guy. And NEVER stop and consider their own racially biased motivation for doing so.

Can't say I related to any of the above.... and speaking as a White Male, where I come from, getting a job isn't as simple and easy as you make it out to be..... certainly not now a days. I have had a number of jobs turn me down because someone was more qualified then I.... regardless of gender, race or sexual preference.... someone has more experience, can do the job better then I, they get it.

Yet just because I get a job over someone else, that doesn't automatically mean it was based on race and if I ever found out it was, I would not accept the job, or quit the moment I found out, based on principle alone.

I never once said racial bias doesn't exist in the US, in fact, even I know it's still very rampant down there.... it still exists here in Canada as well, but certainly not by any level comparable as in the US, and it's because of the various laws, rights, education within schools and social development over time that has turned the racist majority of the past into a very small minority today...... and will continue to do so.

Please keep in mind that just because things are not great in the US, that doesn't automatically mean everywhere else in the world is far far worse.

Shit - thanks to this PC crap, prejudiced people do not even think they are prejudiced anymore! They no longer discuss 'niggers' and 'cheap Jews'...and because of that, they honestly think they are tolerant. So much has been made of WORDS that we have completely forgotten about the ATTITUDES that underlie those words. And until we address the attitudes, banning the words isn't gonna mean a damn thing - not with regard to anything that really matters past a slight case of 'hurt feelings'.

Once again, I wasn't just talking about names and words, but also actions, and not just actions of beating or harming others physically, but any and all of the above actions you listed towards general discrimination in everyday life.

And I'm sorry...but if a society can tolerate nightclubs which bar individuals from entrance based on some flunky bouncer's determination of who is a 'fattie' and who is not...then no.

That is not my society to my knowledge, because if something like that did occur, people would hear about it, and that club would face legal action if the victim so wished to do so.

I've heard of various dress codes being upheld or refusing really drunk people from entering the club, but I've never heard of a club refusing service of someone based on their size, color, etc.

We have no right at ALL to think of ourselves as 'evolved' or 'tolerant' or anything of the kind. Instead, we all need to take a good hard look at ourselves and face the fact that for all of the time we have spent (wasted?) addressing symptoms...the disease of discrimination and hate is still alive and well.

Sorry, but I do not hold myself responsible for other's actions... if it worked that way, then those same people who committed offenses described above would be equally responsible for the decent acts I commit in my life, and imo, they don't deserve such relation.

I don't consider myself as "Tolerant" of anything.... Tolerance to me means "not fully accepting the differences of those around you." ~ ie: you tolerate, but you don't accept.

I come from a family of many different backgrounds from Native, African, Scottish and Irish.... I have family members who are gay, have mental challenges, not in the best shape or health, addicted to drugs and/or alcohol..... and I view them all equally for who they are, not what they "Appear" to be on the surface...... and my friends over the years have been treated the same way.

I don't judge races, religions, genders or people of different sexual preferences as a whole.... I judge the individual based on their words and their actions.

I in no way relate or resemble any of the people you are describing above and I am not saying I'm perfect, but before you chalk up humanity as doomed and there's no chance for true equality to exist..... keep in mind that I am just one example among many around the world who oppose such divisions in society you mentioned above.

Oh...and by the way, I do NOT think this is a US-only problem. Certainly there is a lot of discrimination and prejudice all over the world - in some parts of the world, it is what racial purges and genocide are made of. In other parts of the world, it takes the form of endless squabbles and full-blown wars over religion. In other parts of the world, it takes the form of very strong taboos in society about letting 'outsiders' in to the inner circle of business or family. It takes many forms in many different parts of the world. And I do NOT believe that Canada is exempt either, for all of Canada's great qualities (and yes - I happen to like your country very much). It is true that I was addressing primarily the US in my initial post, because it is my country and the society in which I live, the business environment in which I function every day, etc. However, I will say that I have spent enough time living and working on both Russia and Japan to know that neither of those two countries are exempt - neither in the business world nor in issues regarding socializing, family life, etc.

Agreed, and as mentioned, Canada isn't perfect either, but the extend of this divide is smaller then what it appears to be in the US.

Because of all these various stems of the same problem you mentioned above that exist all around the world in many different forms..... this is exactly why it takes time to deal with & gradually remove these issues from society and it is why there is no one overnight quick fix solution.

We are trying to correct centuries of thinking that what is different must be dangerous or can not be trusted...... only in the last 100 years or so has society around the world actually tried to tackle this issue..... 100 years out of thousands past.... I don't expect miracles right away.

I simply believe that for no other reason other than 'a natural fear of the unknown'..prejudice can crop up pretty much anywhere, any time. People fear what they do not understand - it is human nature. And that is why UNDERSTANDING - not PC lingo, is what is going to heal the disease of hate.

We can spend forever beating people up about words. But until we change their MINDS, not a whole lot will really change.

Agreed.... and how else does one go about this other then making laws, enforcing equality and rights and of course education (I seemed to have forgotten to mention education in my previous post, my bad)

But with the combined approaches of the above, yes, including the PC stuff, over time it will improve, generations to come will gradually improve with relations to those different from them, and the way we are now will go the way of the days when slavery was considered the norm.....

It is and will continue to be a long battle... but with people such as yourself, such as I, and such as others in these forums and some of the people you cross by each day in your real life.... the battle continues, and while we exist.... society isn't as racist, hateful and bigoted as it once was..... and is exactly why I can not fully agree with your position of humanity.

Sure you could say "Well you're not a woman or have gone through the things I have" ~ And you'd be correct, however on a number of occasions, I have seen first hand what woman and other minorities have gone through and often I have stepped in, simply because I was raised to believe it's the right thing to do.

We are not yet to any perfect utopian society and we have a long way to go, but I personally believe it exists and with my life, my beliefs and my own actions, I will strive to see it come true. (among other wild ideas I have in my head)

There are bigoted people in the world, but not everybody is, and the balance between the two is gradually changing for the better.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Praxius--you're absolutely right that EVERYBODY, no matter who they are or what they look like (and yes, that includes white males) is hated by somebody somewhere for factors they can't control. And until we confront that reality...that prejudice is universal and not something that only one group does to one other...then I don't think we'll ever make any REAL progress. We have to see just how deep the problem goes before we can deal meaningfully with it.

 

[Timo]

Timo - I see what you are saying. At least I think I do: That society treats anyone who is 'different' from them as 'freaks'. Not that you hate or look down on 'different' (for whatever reason) people yourself, but that society, whether we like it or not, treats anyone who is different from them...well....differently...and often this puts them at a further disadvantage.

Or at least parts of the society do - and it would be interesting to see us humans as the victims of such an attitude from the broader Trek society. Yes, that's what I was saying. Although I don't think considering somebody "freaky" is particularly hateful in itself; the hate aspect seems to have crept into this discussion indirectly, through the handling of the issue of insults.

Sorry about not responding earlier (weekends are a bitch, and no offense to the bitches out there!). Also, apologies for offending any of the other posters here, however indirectly. I didn't mean to raise a ruckus as such, only to cast the existence of Bajoran noses in a different light - to wit, the strange absence of such noses on humans.

I also think our lack of prehensile tails is a serious handicap, but that's another discussion...

Timo Saloniemi