Questions about Reliant design, where is the Nav Dish?

[Lord Garth FOI]

Watched my Blu of II for a Christmas eve treat

As many times as I have seen II and the subsequent DS9 episodes where the model was featured it dawned on me today that to my knowledge it is the only Starship with no navigational deflector dish

In addition it dawned on me that unless one accesses the torpedo bay by crawlway then the torp bay must be fully automated with no crew. The rollbar is too narrow for a full deck and also connect to the warp pylons and not the ship's hull itself

So has anyone else noticed these picadillos or am I nuts?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think it's been noticed from the start.

There have been other starships without navigational deflectors (the Oberth-class springs to mind as well as some Klingon and Romulan designs). I go with the theory that the Reliant and her sister Miranda-class ships employ a navigational deflector forcefield that pushes objects away from them. A dish may only be necessary for applications other than clearing objects from a flight path perhaps...

The Reliant's torpedo launchers may be manned, though. I think there is enough space in the rollbar for one- or two-person service lifts, IMO.

 

[Ultramann]

Could never figure out in the Oberth class how to get to the engineering hull except by transporter.

 

[C.E. Evans]

^^^
I'm more inclined to think the engineering section of the Oberth-class is in the upper section with the nacelles and the huge dorsal pod is a really large unmanned sensor array myself.

 

[SeerSGB]

^^^
I'm more inclined to think the engineering section of the Oberth-class is in the upper section with the nacelles and the huge dorsal pod is a really large unmanned sensor array myself.

That or something akin to a swappable mission module. You could even put manned science labs down there with the science teams being "on site" and isolated for weeks at a time doing research.

I think it's been noticed from the start.

There have been other starships without navigational deflectors (the Oberth-class springs to mind as well as some Klingon and Romulan designs). I go with the theory that the Reliant and her sister Miranda-class ships employ a navigational deflector forcefield that pushes objects away from them. A dish may only be necessary for applications other than clearing objects from a flight path perhaps...

The Reliant's torpedo launchers may be manned, though. I think there is enough space in the rollbar for one- or two-person service lifts, IMO.

I thought low-powered deflector fields was the "accepted" explanation for the lack of a nav-deflector dish?

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

I call Bullshit on low powered deflector shields. if that were the case then most ships would not have a Nav deflector as it makes a juicy weapons lock target if you ask me

And no there is not enough room in the rollbar for a service lift. Crawlway maybe but not a full 7 ft. (or 8ft') lift

Love the thoughts though

 

[Mysterion]

I call Bullshit on low powered deflector shields. if that were the case then most ships would not have a Nav deflector as it makes a juicy weapons lock target if you ask me

Well, maybe those big dishy things on the seondary hulls aren't navigtion deflectors, then. In that position, they'd be blocked by the primary hull from covering the full forward aspect of the ship anyways.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I call Bullshit on low powered deflector shields. if that were the case then most ships would not have a Nav deflector as it makes a juicy weapons lock target if you ask me

Any part of a ship would be "a juicy weapons lock" by your definition, so we can't go by that. It's more plausible that ships without deflector dishes use some other means to clear obstacles from their path. The advantage of a dish over a forcefield is debatable, but we do know that not every spacecraft in Trek has or needs a dish.

And no there is not enough room in the rollbar for a service lift. Crawlway maybe but not a full 7 ft. (or 8ft') lift

A service lift need not to be a turbolift in either size or performance. But a lift in general can move vertically, horizontally, and even diagonally depending on the shaft it's moving through (that's certainly the case with the lifts in the St. Louis Arch, which are only 5 ft).
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/jeff/images/fig2-76.jpg
And the rollbar seems on the Reliant to be larger than an entire deck, so a full-sized turbolift cab being able to travel through there doesn't seem that implausible.
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/0/05/USS_Reliant.jpg

 

[Wingsley]

^ Thanks for citing the Arch in this thread. My grandfather worked as a welder at PDM, where they manufactured the components for the Arch. The parts were then shipped by rail to the construction site overlooking the Mississippi River. He never lived to see the project he worked on, but I went up in it in the summer of '75. Those elevator capsules are weird! I suppose they work very well for your supposition on the Miranda-type starships as well.

Regarding the Miranda/Reliant/Saratoga and their ilk, maybe the navi-deflectors are built into those little phaser-cannon-pod thingies on the outboard tips of the "rollbar". There's nothing etched in stone that says the navi-deflector has to look exactly the same for all classes of Federation starships, is there?

 

[blssdwlf]

Isn't the Constellation-class also among the no-deflector dish types as well? I never did buy into the dish as navigational deflector when the TOS E could warp backwards and pivot at warp.

 

[Wingsley]

There actually is nothing in TOS that explicitly explains the function of the Enterprise's dish; the first time I remember seeing anything about it was the novelization of TMP, in which Mr. Roddenberry explained what it was.

I don't really see why such a deflector would be necessary or practical for that matter. A space vessel, even in the oddly two-dimensional world of TREK, should be able to pivot or "back-up" in flight for the sake of evasive or other practical maneuvers.

Of course, we have no idea how warp drive would actually work, assuming such a drive is possible. Could a technology like that rely on a dish component to make the warp field work? We have no idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the dish originally called the "main sensor"? My trusty "The Making of Star Trek" by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry clearly labels the dish as such on page 178.

 

[Timo]

Isn't the Constellation-class also among the no-deflector dish types as well?

Well, there is the huge rectangle at the very bow of the saucer. Could be a shuttlebay, could be a "traditional" deflector dish. Granted, we never see it lit the way the Constitution dish glows - but we only see it unlit twice, once in the depowered and derelict Stargazer, the second time very briefly when the Victory slows down to a rendezvous with the E-D at the end of "Elementary, Dear Data".

Yes, it should be possible to fit a perfectly standard turbolift within the roll bar of a Miranda class ship. And the only problem with having a slightly downsizen lift cab inside the pylon of an Oberth is the sharp turn it has to make at the lower end...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

@Timo - in one of the scenes where the front rectangle is seen "unlit" on the Stargazer you can make out the shuttlebay door number on it. It's not a deflector dish.

Also, the long range Vulcan shuttle didn't have a deflector dish either, AFAIK.

 

[Forbin]

IMHO:
The Reliant's deflector is probably behind some conformal skin panel at the front of the saucer. The Enterprise has the big deflector/sensor dish because it's an exploration vessel, while the Reliant is mostly a combat vessel.

The roll bar and torp pod are swappable mission modules, fully automated and uncrewed. If putting people aboard for repairs is needed, they beam in.

The underslung pod on the Oberths is also an unmanned sensor pod which includes a deflector dish behind the forward "radome." Other pods are available for other missions, possibly manned ones. There may be Jefferies tube access from the main hull, but transporters would be used for any major crew transfer.

That's just the only way these things make sense to me.

 

[Timo]

Why use transporters when you can simply walk down, and up, on a standing-height corridor that doesn't even need to feature any steps? It's not that many meters between the two hulls. And the corridor can have "up" pointing at any desired direction, thanks to the use of artificial gravity.

For emergencies, one could even use slides: one going down each pylon, another going up. All you have to do is sit down on one and it will take you in the direction you desire. Wheeeee! Artificial gravity won't quit on you - that much is clear from hundreds of hours of Star Trek.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

There actually is nothing in TOS that explicitly explains the function of the Enterprise's dish; the first time I remember seeing anything about it was the novelization of TMP, in which Mr. Roddenberry explained what it was.

As you say later on in your post, it was first described in The Making of Star Trek, which came out while the show was still on the air and was very popular.

I don't really see why such a deflector would be necessary or practical for that matter. A space vessel, even in the oddly two-dimensional world of TREK, should be able to pivot or "back-up" in flight for the sake of evasive or other practical maneuvers.

Space is full of dust and small bits of debris, and at relativistic speeds, even a tiny fleck of dust can have enough kinetic energy to cause a nuclear-sized explosion if it hits you. And at those speeds you wouldn't have time to dodge every little speck. Not to mention that it takes far, far less energy to kick the occasional microgram particle out of the way than it would to alter the course of a 190,000-ton starship.

Of course, the navigational deflector makes more sense at high impulse speeds than at warp. The idea of a beam probing out a great distance ahead of the ship doesn't make a lot of sense when the ship is encased in a spacetime bubble travelling much faster than light. If the beam were projected out of the warp bubble, presumably it would then be travelling slower than light, and the warp bubble would outrace it, so it would be rendered useless. (It's like the old joke: If you travelled at the speed of light, would your headlights work?) For that matter, the warp bubble itself would probably shred any matter it came in contact with, though you'd still probably need to shape the bubble to shunt that matter around the ship inside.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the dish originally called the "main sensor"? My trusty "The Making of Star Trek" by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry clearly labels the dish as such on page 178.

You should've studied the book more thoroughly. On p. 191, the text describes it as "[t]he starship's main sensor-deflector (a parabolic sensor antenna and asteroid deflector)". And earlier on p. 86, in a 1964 Roddenberry memo summarizing the results of his discussions with various scientific consultants, there's this:

Some kind of "meteoroid shield" or "meteoroid force field deflector" will be necessary in true spaceships. If not a force field, it may be a magnetic field which deflects cosmic dust or small meteoroids via an opposite charge. Or it might consist of a probing Laser beam which deflects and/or destroys dust and small particles from the path of the ship.

 

[Psion]

"... via an opposite charge ..."

Hmmm ... this won't end well.

You all might note on the secondary hull of the refit Enterprise that there are three little bumps ringing the parabolic dish on either side and the bottom. They look a bit ornamental, but presumably do more than simply hold the sensor/navigational deflector dish to the front of the hull.

These same structures are visible on the Reliant, however this time they're mounted on the primary hull a bit downslope from the port and starboard phasers and abutting the raised aft end. (I'd show pictures, but it's Boxing Day and I hate setting up all the references in Picassa or whatever.)

Anyway ... perhaps these are the active components of the navigational deflector.

 

[Christopher]

^According to the Kimble blueprints, they're "space-energy field attraction sensors."

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

Lord Garth does not consider any Next Genny stuff canon (except DS9)

Isn't the Constellation-class also among the no-deflector dish types as well? I never did buy into the dish as navigational deflector when the TOS E could warp backwards and pivot at warp.

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

LOL no

Reliant is a Lt. Cruiser. Enterprise is a Heavy Cruiser both are built for exploration but the Enterprise is more of a frontline combat vessel than Reliant little flowerchild

IMHO:
The Reliant's deflector is probably behind some conformal skin panel at the front of the saucer. The Enterprise has the big deflector/sensor dish because it's an exploration vessel, while the Reliant is mostly a combat vessel.

The roll bar and torp pod are swappable mission modules, fully automated and uncrewed. If putting people aboard for repairs is needed, they beam in.

The underslung pod on the Oberths is also an unmanned sensor pod which includes a deflector dish behind the forward "radome." Other pods are available for other missions, possibly manned ones. There may be Jefferies tube access from the main hull, but transporters would be used for any major crew transfer.

That's just the only way these things make sense to me.