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Question: Could the Enterprise-C possibly not have been the flagship?

Chronoculars

Cadet
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After a recent inclination to read more Star Trek books thanks to an earlier post, I picked up a few of the technical manuals and gave them a read. In what I found on the Ambassador class, I noticed that it was noted that the Ambassador class was "under-powered", so, that got me thinking.

Considering that we only see the C in Yesterday's Enterprise, and we don't know that much else about it's history and it's class, is it possible that the C wasn't the Federation flagship during it's time?
 
I believe the D was the only one referred to as "the Federation flagship." So, all the other Enterprises probably weren't.

Prior to the Enterprise-D, the idea of one ship being designated the Federation flagship might not have existed.
 
No Enterprise was ever referred to as "the flagship" except the D - I don't know why anyone would think otherwise. They were always "just another working ship." Kirk was junior (younger and less time in rank) to every other starship captain in TOS - how could he command a flagship?

And the D wasn't literally the fleet flagship in the current military sense - that of being the ship where a "flag" officer (an admiral) is aboard and commands the fleet from. The usage on TNG is more like referring to a cruise line's most luxurious, or most profitable ship.
 
*mutters*please don't turn this into other "is Starfleet a military organization or not" debate*mutters*
 
The E-C was a very prominent ship, any to carry the name would be, but there's no reason to believe that either she or the E-B were the Federation Flagship (at the end of the 23rd Century that could easily have been the Excelsior).
 
Probably the Enterprise equals flagship deal was kinda skewed since we've paid attention to five out of several ships that share the name.

It's probably better to think of an Enterprise as a ship that was advanced for its time (it's usually built quite as early as the ships that bears the class name like Constitution, Ambassador, etc) that just happen to carry a very excellent crew that'll go hell and back to get the job done.

The C and by extension the Ambassador class being underpowered...That just might be the way Starfleet was working with at the time (treaty with the Klingons and what not). The C's destruction probably shook that stance up to give a little more leeway for powerful ship designs without going against those early principles.
 
TOS had at least one flagship in the sense of a ship having a flag officer aboard and commanding assets from that position - the Lexington controlled a formation of ships, with Commodore Wesley in charge (although the ship herself may also have had a lowly Captain commanding her own maneuvers, as is common with real-world flagships of this sort).

We don't know if the other starship head honcho of Commodore rank, Matt Decker, also had a formation of ships following his flag. They were suspiciously absent from the episode, but the jamming effect of the Doomsday Machine would have eliminated them from the picture anyway.

In another sense, Commodore Mendez (or at least his illusion) literally broke his flag aboard Kirk's ship, turning her into his flagship. That is, we see two flags flying at the inquiry, and while the light blue one appears to have the Starfleet Banana symbol, the other one in studio reality appears to be the Cuban national flag, and might be Mendez' personal flag in-universe.

TNG made several references to flagships in the sense of ships used for commanding formations of vessels, although we never learned that this would require a special type of vessel. In the real world, generic combat vessels have been used as flagships for a much shorter period of time than dedicated combat-incapable vessels - if one excludes the age of sail. But in the Trek context, one probably shouldn't do that.

As for specific Enterprises...

Archer's ship: very advanced, the first-ever Starfleet deep space explorer. the biggest Starfleet vessel we saw. Never had a flag officer aboard giving orders (excluding the Mirror Universe), never actually commanded a fleet of ships (excluding the "Twilight" alternate timeline), never was referred to as flagship. In practice, was Earth's showcase ship. Probably best defined as "flagship-capable" and potential "United Earth Flagship".

Kirk's first ship before refit: not advanced nor first, but the biggest seen (excluding alternate timelines). Had a flag officer aboard giving orders a couple of times, never commanded a fleet of ships, never was referred to as flagship. Wasn't Starfleet's, Earth's, Federation's or mankind's showcase ship. Sister ships showed prowess at flagshipping, tho. Probably best defined as "flagship-capable" in the strictly military sense.

Kirk's first ship after refit: potentially advanced and first, but not assuredly either of those things, and not the biggest if background graphics of dreadnoughts count. Had a flag officer aboard giving orders once, never commanded a fleet of ships, never was referred to as flagship. Depending on whether the refit gave her novelty value, may have been a Federation showcase ship, and certainly was a notorious Starfleet vessel. Probably best defined as "flagship-capable", but again in the strictly military sense, as Starfleet wouldn't want to make too much of a fuss about her notoriety by actually formally calling her flagship in the "best in show" sense.

Kirk's second ship: Technical specs supposedly same as with the first refitted, but did not have a flag officer aboard at any stage. The other things being equal, probably best defined as above.

Harriman's ship: Biggest ship seen to that date. Never had a flag officer aboard, never commanded a fleet of ships, etc. - but we saw so little of her that all bets really are off. Probably best defined as eminently "flagship-capable" both in the military and symbolic senses.

Garrett's ship: Biggest ship seen to that date. Never had a flag officer aboard etc. - but again we saw very little of her, so as above.

Picard's first ship: Again biggest ship seen to that date. Had flag officers aboard, and Pressman attempted to assume command, while Jameson assumed mission command. Was supposed to lead fleets of ships under Jellico at least. Was called the Federation Flagship twice. Probably best defined as "flagship-capable" in the military sense, and definitely as "Federation Flagship" in the showpiece sense.

Picard's second ship: Not as big as the previous E, but was referred to as the most advanced. The one flag officer seen aboard did not try to assume command, but a fleet of ships was briefly commanded by Picard himself. Never was called the flagship of anything. Probably at most defined as "flagship-capable", then - although by that date, even midgets like Defiant could serve in that role, so it's not saying much.

As for the name Enterprise only going to important ships, this doesn't appear to be the case. Between Archer's ship and Kirk's, Earth and Starfleet both felt that the best ship should be named something else altogether; likewise between Garrett's and Picard's ships, and potentially between Harriman's and Garrett's as well - or even Kirk's first and Harriman's, since the name did linger but on an aged design. On the other hand, the upward trend in size was lost at the transition from D to E, so the name might be fading to obscurity again.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Absolutely anything is possible. So, yes, it possibly may not have been the flagship.
 
The bit about the ambassador being underpowered is what they call "fanwank". It was an attempt to fix the supposed inconsistency of why the Ambassador class model never showed up in the show before that when the Excelsior was shown still in service 100 years later.

Authors of various media tend to make up excuses when they don't really need them.
 
I mean, anything is technically "flagship-capable." The carrier sinks and the admiral hops aboard a passing Vosper rescue boat, gets on the radio and starts issuing orders - voila, the rescue boat is now the flagship.
 
Is "Flagship-capable" an actual term? Or did you just make that up?

Neither - I made it up back in '09 but only put it in use today. :p

I mean, anything is technically "flagship-capable."

"Technically" is specifically the part where most ships aren't. One needs the sheer physical space for the staff, the communications bandwidth and sets, and hopefully also some indigenous sensor and computing capacity.

ITRW, navies used to be full of "flagship-capable" vessels - ships that normally had no command duties but featured entire extra decks to their superstructure for the purpose of hosting a dedicated fleet control team in times of need, and featured the required communications gear even if it saw no peacetime use. The USN outgrew the need in two ways, moving fleet control functions to the carriers that could easily spare the room and amphibious assault control to dedicated command ships (plus briefly also using surplus amphibious assault ships as control assets for fleets, to better fudge the issue). Soviet/Russian ships still had/have the "standby flagship capacity" built in.

The new movie timeline apparently utilizes dedicated flagships, of which Pike's vessel appeared to be one at least bck in 2258. Whether the old timeline had those, we don't canonically know. Perhaps the Lexington had special gear other than an extended backrest for the Commodore, perhaps not.

By the time of TNG, of course, Sisko can wave the flag with the help of a crew of forty (and without either a physical flag or even flag rank), and it wouldn't surprise me if he could do that from aboard a runabout. Admiral Nechayev still likes to have a flagship to her person, tho, so the need hasn't gone away as such.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Intriguing the comments about the Ambassador being underpowered. I'd hate to think how powerful she could have been, although destroyed she gave 3 Romulan warbirds a good fight.
 
I never got the impression the Ambassador-Class was "under-powered". The E-C went up against four warbirds and held her own for a considerable time. I always think the reason we never saw much of them after TNG was that they'd proven to be highly effective operating independently on long-range missions, so most of the Ambassador fleet were all out on deep space exploratory missions. Given that they were the equivalent of the Galaxy-Class at the time I wouldn't think there would by hundreds of them in service anyway, so they'd be scattered across the quadrants.

That's my thinking anyway but I am an unashamed Ambassador-lover.
 
And of course the real-world reason we didn't see it often is that they only thought to make the model for Yesterday's Enterprise, midway through TNG's run, by which time they were too hung up on the cost savings from using the Excelsior model. That and the E-C from Yesterday's Enterprise was hastily built and needed repairs before extensive use.
 
Intriguing the comments about the Ambassador being underpowered. I'd hate to think how powerful she could have been, although destroyed she gave 3 Romulan warbirds a good fight.
Yes, and we've seen the E-D get whipped by just two Romulan warbirds, so... It's just post-universe commentary, as I see it. The only thing, that not many people mention, is that the E-C was designed in 1 day. The props department had VERY little time to think it through due to a demanding schedule. It's true that some of the best ideas come from insanely short deadlines, but I don't think the E-C is one of them. It's a compromise between the E-B and E-D, no doubt about it, but a little peculiar. Frankly, I see no purpose behind a deflector dish being angled, versus straight. And the E-C is angled... horribly so. And then, they did it once more with the E-E. The navigational deflector array "was used to deflect space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles and other objects that might have collided with the ship." Ship travels forward nearly all the time, so forward facing dish is what is optimal. E-A, E-B, E-D all have it. I think this just telegraphs lack of time to thoroughly think the design through.

About "flagship", I think Starfleet uses the term loosely, as a metaphor, rather than a literal flagship.

In contemporary naval terms, a flagship "is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships, characteristically a flag officer entitled by custom to fly a distinguishing flag. Used more loosely, it is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, or best known." The term "flagship" is fundamentally a temporary designation; the flagship is wherever the admiral's flag is being flown. However, admirals have always needed additional facilities, including a meeting room large enough to hold all the captains of the fleet and a place for the admiral's staff to make plans and draw up orders. Clearly this isn't the use depicted in Star Trek.

The USS Enterprise hardly ever operates as a lead ship... it's off flying on its own most of the time. However, it does seem to "take the lead" when dealing with engagements involving additional starfleet vessels. In Star Trek, the Enterprise is not only based on the most advanced starship class, it supposedly has the best crew in the fleet. Every crew member is carefully chosen. I think that's what really sets the Enterprise apart from other ships in the same class. And that's why it's considered a "flagship." A synonym for "most revered."
 
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