In the opening scene (Kobayashi Maru) aside from the regulars there are trainees filling whatever positions necessary. However, once the Klingons have done their damage to the Enterprise and "killed" the regulars all the cadets have seemed to have disappeared. Anyone else catch this/
Question about Star Trek II
- Thread starter willg
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Well, supposedly the simulation was there to test the command skills of Saavik specifically. Perhaps the "trainees" in jumpsuits were just supporting actors and not trainees at all, and quickly vacated the premises after the simulation was completed, leaving the actual testee to face the evaluation board?
Of course, since Kirk speaks of Spock's students in plural, Saavik cannot have been the only one being evaluated. Perhaps only the commissioned officers in that simulation (that is, the people wearing the maroon tunics, meaning Saavik and the blonde guy named Cray in the novels IIRC) were under scrutiny?
Timo Saloniemi
Of course, since Kirk speaks of Spock's students in plural, Saavik cannot have been the only one being evaluated. Perhaps only the commissioned officers in that simulation (that is, the people wearing the maroon tunics, meaning Saavik and the blonde guy named Cray in the novels IIRC) were under scrutiny?
Timo Saloniemi
That's right; he did tell the trainees to head to the BR and then he gave Jim his birthday gift.
No, the OP was right.
After the explosions and before spock tells them to leave you don't see the trainees.
It was for drama to highlight that saavik was alone with the crew 'dead'
To show the other trainees standing there amid the ruin might have ruined the focus of the scene---the 'commander' in the no-win situation.
We can assume they were there hidden by the smoke. Maybe it like a war game---their jump-suits might indicate a 'fatal wound' and they step aside and let the 'living' cadets continue with the simulation.
After the explosions and before spock tells them to leave you don't see the trainees.
It was for drama to highlight that saavik was alone with the crew 'dead'
To show the other trainees standing there amid the ruin might have ruined the focus of the scene---the 'commander' in the no-win situation.
We can assume they were there hidden by the smoke. Maybe it like a war game---their jump-suits might indicate a 'fatal wound' and they step aside and let the 'living' cadets continue with the simulation.
One might expect all the low-ranking trainees to quickly fall in line when their high-ranking instructor arrives (as opposed to just lounging around in a <shudder> civilian fashion). That line could simply have been outside camera view.
Regarding the terminology, somebody being trained to be an enlisted crewmember wouldn't be called "cadet". Nor, in today's parlance, would somebody who has already got her commission to Lieutenant (jg) and is merely taking a postgraduate command exam. Yet somebody in that test was considered a cadet. Who was that?
We saw the jumpsuit folks, who might have been enlisted trainees or then already trained little helpers for the instructors, or then a mix of both. We saw the regular heroes serving as instructors' helpers. We saw Spock who apparently was the instructor. We saw Kirk who was a higher-up instructor, possibly Academy Commandant. And we saw the two new officers, Saavik and Cray, both of whom apparently were already graduated and commissioned since they wore the uniforms and the rank pins. So again, who was the cadet?
To be sure, nowhere in the movie is Saavik addressed as cadet. She's "Lieutenant" or "Mister" to Kirk from the beginning to the end.
To add to the oddity, Peter Preston whose "Engineer's Mate" designation suggests he is an enlisted man is called "Midshipman", a term traditionally interchangeable with cadet or referring to cadets on shipboard training, and thus not applicable to enlisted men at all. If Preston is in fact a cadet/midshipman, and destined for officer commission, then perhaps some other people in jumpsuits are also cadets/midshipmen and not enlisted trainees?
This would be supported, strangely enough, by ST:NEM, where cadet Picard in an old photo wears the ST2 jumpsuit. What's more, he wears it with the black collar that the costume designer wanted to denote enlisted status. Apparently, the costume designer was wrong...
Timo Saloniemi
Regarding the terminology, somebody being trained to be an enlisted crewmember wouldn't be called "cadet". Nor, in today's parlance, would somebody who has already got her commission to Lieutenant (jg) and is merely taking a postgraduate command exam. Yet somebody in that test was considered a cadet. Who was that?
We saw the jumpsuit folks, who might have been enlisted trainees or then already trained little helpers for the instructors, or then a mix of both. We saw the regular heroes serving as instructors' helpers. We saw Spock who apparently was the instructor. We saw Kirk who was a higher-up instructor, possibly Academy Commandant. And we saw the two new officers, Saavik and Cray, both of whom apparently were already graduated and commissioned since they wore the uniforms and the rank pins. So again, who was the cadet?
To be sure, nowhere in the movie is Saavik addressed as cadet. She's "Lieutenant" or "Mister" to Kirk from the beginning to the end.
To add to the oddity, Peter Preston whose "Engineer's Mate" designation suggests he is an enlisted man is called "Midshipman", a term traditionally interchangeable with cadet or referring to cadets on shipboard training, and thus not applicable to enlisted men at all. If Preston is in fact a cadet/midshipman, and destined for officer commission, then perhaps some other people in jumpsuits are also cadets/midshipmen and not enlisted trainees?
This would be supported, strangely enough, by ST:NEM, where cadet Picard in an old photo wears the ST2 jumpsuit. What's more, he wears it with the black collar that the costume designer wanted to denote enlisted status. Apparently, the costume designer was wrong...
Timo Saloniemi
Who's called cadet in that scene?
The costume person on Nemesis, you mean. Convoluted as it may have been, at least Bob Fletcher's system made sense. Whoever pulled that jumpsuit out of storage for Tom Hardy to wear was presumably paying about as much attention as the person who assembled Kim Cattrall's uniform for Undiscovered Country.
Nobody, though there's the line in the corridor where Kirk says to Spock, "I suppose you're loitering here, waiting to see what efficiency rating I plan to give your cadets?"
Naah. Fletcher devised a fine system, but it no longer matches onscreen facts... Much like how several props are now being used in a manner different from what was intended by the creator of the prop.
We might have to abandon the idea that red stands solely for those being trained, or that red is the only color that can be used by those being trained. In theory, we might go back to the TMP/TOS system where red collar denotes Engineering and Services*, and decide that all those redcollars being trained in ST2 were being trained for Engineering or Services - or we might say that both red and black are good for cadets/enlisted trainees/postgrad students and perhaps their instructors, as the newest movie might also indicate.
Frankly, I dislike Fletcher's decision to adopt red as the cadet color when it already had a well-established meaning in TOS and TMP. Why not come up with something not seen before, such as violet or black or perhaps rainbow? The only plus side would have been the ability to reuse some of the radiation suits from ST:TMP without repainting their red collars - but that should have been a rather trivial task.
Timo Saloniemi
*That is, Services minus those divisions that gained new colors in TMP and ST5.
You might have to abandon the idea.
Trying to justify all these little things is silly. Fletcher laid out how the department colors were supposed to work, and other people who didn't work with him and either didn't have access to his notes, or couldn't give a rat's ass what the color scheme was went and screwed it up. Simple as that.
Trying to justify all these little things is silly. Fletcher laid out how the department colors were supposed to work, and other people who didn't work with him and either didn't have access to his notes, or couldn't give a rat's ass what the color scheme was went and screwed it up. Simple as that.
Good catch! I forgot about that continuity issue!
Maybe they were underneath all the heavy smoke from the simulation as someone else said. Dunno. Seems like they all just disappeared!
the scene is not about them so what does it really matter? :-/
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