Question about deafness

[Miss Chicken]

Or more precisely about deaf people speaking.

When I was a child I loved an Australian program called The Magic Circle Club. The host of the show was Nancy Cato (who shouldn't be confused with her cousin the author Nancy Cato). Nancy later went on to host Adventure Island. Though it was not well-known back in the 60s, Nancy was born profoundly deaf.

She was born in 1939 and I gather she attended a regular state school. She says she was teased at school for being deaf. I don't think she ever learnt sign language but is an excellent lip reader who is very sensitive to vibrations. She says, as a child, she could tell whether a record her mother put on was Mozart or Beethoven.

Below is a clip of Nancy speaking, both as a young woman and as a more mature lady. My question is - do many profoundly deaf people learn to speak as well as she does?

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKKY_I-5iqg[/yt]

 

[Venardhi]

If I recall my deaf history right from my ASL class, starting in the late 1800s and until fairly recently (and ongoing in much of it still) most of the world was against the use of sign language at all and instead insisted on teaching lip reading and other methods of communication. Several generations went by where if you were deaf you would essentially only be exposed to sign language if it was spoken in the home.

Success with the alternative methods depend a lot on the individuals. I know several deaf people who can speak perfectly well and lip read very well, and some who can't do either.

 

[thestrangequark]

As far as I know (and I'm no expert!) it depends on a lot of variables, the individual, the type and severity of the impairment, the treatment, the environment...so many things! I was profoundly deaf as a young child, and required a lot of therapy to learn to speak intelligibly, and still have a subtle lisp -- though unlike Nancy Cato, I learned sign. I've known some deaf people who can speak without any noticeable difference to hearing people, and some who can't. There is also the fact that there is somewhat of a divide amongst the hearing impaired, with many being against treatments such as cochlear implants and trying to learn to speak for hearing people. The reason for this being that the deaf community has its own proper language and culture, and some feel that this is lost when there's intervention.

I get what she means about vibrations, though. When I play my cello I rely on the vibrations more than my hearing to keep in tune, and I play with the tuning peg for the C string pressed into my neck behind my ear for that reason.

 

[2takesfrakes]

At one place I worked for, there was a very pretty deaf woman I worked with and I got to talk to her a fair amount, which I enjoyed. She spoke in what could be described as a harsh whisper, with some odd tonal jumps, now and again. But she enunciated very well and spoke clearly. Believe it or not, she also drove, which I did not know was allowed, before I met her. Not hearing a siren, or a car screeching, or honking, or a kid shouting, could make all the difference, one would think ...

Anyway, although she was born deaf, she did not appreciate being in that condition and sought corrective surgery for it. Unfortunately, this was, for her, at any rate, a matter of "Be careful what you wish for." It was not like a blind person receiving their sight and everything just being obvious in its context, right in front of you. Sounds we take for granted and don't think about were very distracting for her. Some sounds were strangely loud to her, and people had to speak to her in a much softer tone, than perhaps, came naturally to them. Around this time, I moved on to other things, so I don't know how her story ended. I believe it was the newness that freaked her out, at first. She may even forget what it was like to be deaf, sometimes.

 

[Miss Chicken]

If I recall my deaf history right from my ASL class, starting in the late 1800s and until fairly recently (and ongoing in much of it still) most of the world was against the use of sign language at all and instead insisted on teaching lip reading and other methods of communication. Several generations went by where if you were deaf you would essentially only be exposed to sign language if it was spoken in the home.

Yes, I assumed that she grew up in a time when sign language was discouraged and that she was one of the luckier ones who was able to learn to lip-read and speak very well.

Auslan is the sign language used in Australia which is a descendant of British Sign Language with some Irish Sign Language influences. ASL comes from French Sign Language combined with some Martha's Vineyards Sign Language. Irish Sign Language also originates from French Sign Language.

 

[thestrangequark]

Believe it or not, she also drove, which I did not know was allowed, before I met her.

I'm honestly surprised that that surprises you.

Anyway, although she was born deaf, she did not appreciate being in that condition and sought corrective surgery for it. Unfortunately, this was, for her, at any rate, a matter of "Be careful what you wish for." It was not like a blind person receiving their sight and everything just being obvious in its context, right in front of you. Sounds we take for granted and don't think about were very distracting for her. Some sounds were strangely loud to her, and people had to speak to her in a much softer tone, than perhaps, came naturally to them. Around this time, I moved on to other things, so I don't know how her story ended. I believe it was the newness that freaked her out, at first. She may even forget what it was like to be deaf, sometimes.

Cochlear implants take a long time to get used to. And you may be surprised, but your sight analogy doesn't really work. People who go from vision-impaired to sighted often go through as difficult a transitional phase as those who go from hearing-impaired to hearing, and vision is definitely not obvious in context...hell, it's not even obvious in context for people who've always had good eyesight, else there'd be no optical illusions! I remember one case study of a man who lost his sight at 3 and had it restored as an adult: he couldn't tell men from women, couldn't tell photographs of objects from actual objects, etc. His case turned out very positively, but there are also case studies of people whose vision correction was nothing but misery for them: they found the world terribly ugly. I recall one man finding it unbearable to look at his wife, because what he had felt as smooth and beautiful turned out to be too many different colors, mottled, spotted -- every flaw, flaws that would be imperceptible to sighted people, stood out to him.

As for forgetting what it's like to be deaf, I cannot speak for this woman, but as for myself, I was deaf for only my earliest years, and had near-normal hearing restored by age 13. Still, I remember what it was like. Very occasionally I still have deaf dreams, too.

 

[Miss Chicken]

If I remember correctly Oliver Sacks told the story of a blind man whose sight was restored. The man did not cope at all with his new-found sight.

edited to add -

Oliver Sack's story "To See and Not See" gives a good example of his writing. This story is one of several in "An Anthropologist on Mars," a work published in nineteen ninety-five. It tells about Virgil, a fifty-year old man who had been blind since he was a child. Doctors believed that his blindness resulted from a genetic condition.
Virgil visits a doctor who believes he may not be permanently blind. The doctor successfully operates on one eye. But after the eye heals, Virgil has trouble seeing and understanding the light and images moving in front of him.

More about it here

 

[thestrangequark]

^Yeah, he was one of the two I was referring to. The other was much earlier...late 19th or early 20th century, if I remember correctly. They also made a ridiculous movie about the case Sacks covered, portraying Virgil as deeply affected and appreciative of his brief restoration of sight. In reality he was a very unkind, rude, and overall unpleasant man who really was not happy seeing!

 

[Finn]

It depends on how one is "profoundly" deaf- one might be able to hear a specific range of sound frequencies with a hearing aid just enough to learn through rigorous speech therapy and still unable to hear anything in rest of the frequencies within the normal hearing range for Humans.

Really, being able to speak when profoundly deaf would require a LOT of speech therapy, continuously especially if the individual doesn't hear well enough to correct his or her voice on their own like hearing individuals.

This individual would have to really want it. However they are often "brainwashed" into doing through it by parents, educators and speech/hearing professionals. I can't think of a better word for "brainwashed", but for them it might seem like the only choice. As if not being able to speak would condemn them to a life of menial jobs or living in an institution.

I've been told by many "Pro-ASL" professionals (educators and interpreters) who happen to be hearing, that too many deaf individuals who don't choose to be part of the signing community have voices that are clearly off. They call it "Deaf Voice". Many of them have been told by certain people that they had beautiful voices when they didn't.

I heard a story some years ago about a profoundly individual who was profoundly Deaf, But he chose to use speech and all. One day, he came to Gallaudet University to talk about his experiences. He decided to speak and have interpreters sign for him. Nobody understood him.

This kind of thing happens when certain speech/hearing professionals keep praising them when they can't talk shit. It happens too often.


But yes, there are profoundly deaf individuals who can speak fluently and flawlessly. They clearly had rigorous speech therapy

 

[thestrangequark]

^It was 7 years of speech therapy for me, in school and at home.

I don't know how I feel about using the term brainwashed, though. I can understand both sides of the issue: those wanting to maintain the validity of the language and culture, and don't want to force people to conform to a hearing world, and those who want the option of being a part of the hearing world. I don't know what I'd be like if I never had my hearing corrected. If I never had those years of speech therapy, hours per day both in school and again when I got home. But music is such a large part of my life, I can't imagine living without it. Then again, perhaps if I'd remained deaf, I would have been just as happy, and would have had other experiences and qualities that I can't attain as a hearing person.

 

[Miss Chicken]

I needed about 6 years of speech therapy and my hearing improved when I had my tonsils out when I was four. I am not sure what level of deafness I actually had before that. I know at 6 my speech was still so bad that my parents couldn't understand me and my sisters would have to translate.

I can't find any article in which Nancy talks about how much speech therapy she had. She has said she was about two or three years old before her parents realised she was deaf.

She does need a companion dog to help her - he lets her know when the postman comes, when an email arrives etc

 

[thestrangequark]

^My mother was my translator.

How is your hearing now, Miss Chicken? Mine is pretty good, and even within normal range in one ear. I still have trouble sometimes, though. I think because I learned speech later in life, even though I can technically hear it I sometimes struggle to understand it, especially if I'm not looking at the speaker. I also can't really hear the difference between V and B, unless it's pointed out to me. Sometimes I find myself having to decode what a person has said -- I automatically say, "Pardon?" but I'm usually able to work out what the person said before they restate it.

 

[Finn]

^It was 7 years of speech therapy for me, in school and at home.

I don't know how I feel about using the term brainwashed, though. I can understand both sides of the issue: those wanting to maintain the validity of the language and culture, and don't want to force people to conform to a hearing world, and those who want the option of being a part of the hearing world. I don't know what I'd be like if I never had my hearing corrected. If I never had those years of speech therapy, hours per day both in school and again when I got home. But music is such a large part of my life, I can't imagine living without it. Then again, perhaps if I'd remained deaf, I would have been just as happy, and would have had other experiences and qualities that I can't attain as a hearing person.

Yes

I have more issues with those who have to maintain marginal speaking voice through speech therapy throughout their lives since they don't hear enough to correct their voices on their own, even those with cochlear implants.

Clearly, that wasn't the case with you and that's great.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Presumably speech therapy worked exceptionally well for me. I've been told by several non-native English speakers that while they have trouble understanding other Americans, they have no problem understanding me; my German roommate has told me that I speak more clearly and precisely than any other American she knows. When I was in India I had to speak for my mother, because the people there couldn't understand her, but they could understand me just fine. It was a weird experience for me, because for the entire first part of my life, almost no one could understand me speak, and I needed my mother to interpret for me. Then I found myself in India having to interpret for her! Up until a few years ago I still assumed that my speech was somehow flawed!

 

[Miss Chicken]

^My mother was my translator.

How is your hearing now, Miss Chicken? Mine is pretty good, and even within normal range in one ear. I still have trouble sometimes, though. I think because I learned speech later in life, even though I can technically hear it I sometimes struggle to understand it, especially if I'm not looking at the speaker. I also can't really hear the difference between V and B, unless it's pointed out to me. Sometimes I find myself having to decode what a person has said -- I automatically say, "Pardon?" but I'm usually able to work out what the person said before they restate it.

I only have minor problems with my hearing.

I have trouble understanding some people on the phone. This improves if I use a speaker phone so I can hear with both ears.

If I hear a word for the first time I often can't work it out even if I know the same word written. This is the reason I was not able to learn foreign languages very well - i.e. at school I l was able to understand written French but was hopeless at understanding oral French.

I have a harder time understanding women's voices and I find some accents quite hard to understand. I have started listening to audio books but I have to be careful about the narrator, I usually only choose books narrated by men. Narrators I prefer include Neil Gaiman, Steven Pacey and Scott Brick. if a book is going to have a lot of foreign or unusually names in it I prefer to read it as I have quite a bit of trouble working out what the name is.

I have trouble picking out speech from background noise at times and because of this I often have subtitles on while watching DVDs.

Some sounds I am much better at hearing than my sons are. These sounds include rain and dripping water and the postman's motorcycle.

 

[thestrangequark]

I only have minor problems with my hearing.

I have trouble understanding some people on the phone. This improves if I use a speaker phone so I can hear with both ears.

If I hear a word for the first time I often can't work it out even if I know the same word written. This is the reason I was not able to learn foreign language very well - i.e. at school I l was able to understand written French but was hopeless at understand oral French.

I have a harder time understanding women's voices and I find some accents quite hard to understand. I have started listening to audio books but I have to be careful about the narrator, I usually only choice books narrated by men. Narrators I prefer include Neil Gaiman, Steven Pacey and Scott Brick. if a book is going to have a lot of foreign or unusually names in it I prefer to read it as I have quite a bit of trouble working out what the name is.

I have trouble picking out speech from background noise at times and because of this I often have subtitles on while watching DVDs.

Some sounds I am much better at hearing than my sons are. These sounds include rain and dripping water and the postman's motorcycle.

Weirdly, for me the experience is almost exactly the opposite. I have no trouble with accents, and often find accents that others struggle with very easy to understand. I am too good at picking voices out of background noise -- by which I mean that I often hear speaking in sounds that are not speech. For example, there is a classic rock song with an instrumental portion that to me sounds exactly like my mother calling my name. As a kid I'd be listening to the radio, hear her calling me, go out to see what she wanted only to be told she never called. It took me awhile to work out that it was the song, but even now, knowing that, and being 3,000 miles away from her, I still hear her calling when I hear that song!

My guess would be that I put so much effort into decoding the distorted and unfamiliar garble that was speech -- seeking speech patterns in random sounds, that I've now become so good at it that I decode non-speech noises into speech!

Also opposite of you, I have more trouble understanding men than women, but I think that's because I have more hearing loss in the lower register. I have two friends whom I find it very difficult to understand, both male, who mumble.

 

[Mary Ann]

An interesting topic.

While no one close to me was born with hearing difficulties, I have an aunt who went deaf in her teens. Now in her 80s, she had scarlet fever when she was 16, which resulted in a stroke. At first she was both blind and deaf, but she recovered her sight. However, she remained profoundly deaf; I believe she has had no hearing at all since her stroke. She never learned to lip read, and while as a child I thought my other aunts and my mother were using the official Dutch signing alphabet to communicate with her my mother told me much later that the signing alphabet they were using was used by pupils in their old Catholic high school so the nuns wouldn't know they were having a conversation during class. I'm assuming some previous pupils invented it.

As my aunt was born with full hearing her speech was very good before her stroke, of course, but by the time I knew my aunt her speech had become very difficult to understand. It had become quite high-pitched, and was an odd cross between being sing-song and screechy. There was no change in pitch, intonation, or volume. She also only spoke in the local dialect, which made her even more difficult to understand for me and anyone who isn't from the Dutch province of Limburg. I never once heard her say anything in "flat" Dutch.

It's a shame she became deaf in the era she did. She's a very intelligent woman with a good sense of humour and a dry wit. There was simply no support available for her to finish her grammar school studies and continue on to further education, and of course the outbreak of World War II made things even worse. In her adult life she did administrative work for another aunt who was a notary, but she could have achieved so much more had the resources been available to her.