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Profits?

GulGoneCrazy

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
I was wondering whats the point of making profits in Star Trek?I can understand the ferengi ,i mean it is in their nature, but what with other species.

If u have replicators from where u can replicate food,clothe,smaller devices and even weapons...what is all that latinum for?except buying a ship or bigger weapons.

And yes! How the starfleet staff has the money to pay a drink at Quarks since they don't get payed in the federation.

Ad the biggest question of all what makes peoples in Star trek to serve in starfleet.I mean with all those holographic programs and free food,free everything why bother serving and risking your life on starship if u don't have to?
 
The Federation is a society where the government provides everything in exchange for it's people living selfless lives in service to the state. I just try not to look too closely at it, lest the concept get too absurd.

Supposedly replicated food isn't as good as real food, so there would still be a market for it. As for Quark's? I dunno, part of his lease is probably his officers get x amount of "credits" a month in exchange for the area and the replicator/holodeck repairs he so regularly gets.
 
The Federation is a society where the government provides everything in exchange for it's people living selfless lives in service to the state. I just try not to look too closely at it, lest the concept get too absurd.

Supposedly replicated food isn't as good as real food, so there would still be a market for it. As for Quark's? I dunno, part of his lease is probably his officers get x amount of "credits" a month in exchange for the area and the replicator/holodeck repairs he so regularly gets.

I assumed the Federation had an electronic currency, "credits" and they gave their officers credits in order to buy things from civilizations that use money.
 
The Federation is a society where the government provides everything in exchange for it's people living selfless lives in service to the state. I just try not to look too closely at it, lest the concept get too absurd.

I see nothing absurd about it. In fact, I'd welcome that, without hessitation.
 
I was wondering whats the point of making profits in Star Trek?I can understand the ferengi ,i mean it is in their nature, but what with other species.
They have a different economy than the Federation's. Any Federation citizens who are conducting business outside of the Federation have to adapt accordingly (as Jake Sisko once found out in DS9).
Ad the biggest question of all what makes peoples in Star trek to serve in starfleet.I mean with all those holographic programs and free food,free everything why bother serving and risking your life on starship if u don't have to?
It's the same reason why some people join the armed services. Not everyone does it for money--some do it out of a need of adventure, a sense of public duty, patriotism, or for strictly personal reasons.
 
The Federation is a society where the government provides everything in exchange for it's people living selfless lives in service to the state. I just try not to look too closely at it, lest the concept get too absurd.

I see nothing absurd about it. In fact, I'd welcome that, without hessitation.
Because the current crop of politicians on top of the pyramid wherever you live are so trustworthy and honrable...

They would not even dare to think about abusing their power...
 
The Federation is a society where the government provides everything in exchange for it's people living selfless lives in service to the state. I just try not to look too closely at it, lest the concept get too absurd.

I see nothing absurd about it. In fact, I'd welcome that, without hessitation.
Because the current crop of politicians on top of the pyramid wherever you live are so trustworthy and honrable...

They would not even dare to think about abusing their power...

Yeah don't do what we want and your replicators get turned off, and we'll have loyal government officers give you a nice pep talk. :p
 
What evidence is there that replicators are government-owned in the UFP? Most of the replicators we've seen were in the service of the military, so of course those are government owned, but so are the people using them.
 
The Federation is a society where the government provides everything in exchange for it's people living selfless lives in service to the state. I just try not to look too closely at it, lest the concept get too absurd.

What I find absurd are people who project current day values and systems into ones of the future that don't (and were not supposed to) operate on the same principles.

What I also find absurd are tons of people today who have 0 idea of what we were capable of pulling off from a resource/technological point of view 100 years ago, let alone today and often end up saying numerous things are 'science fiction' or 'fantasy' because of their own lack of knowledge on the subject matter.

Money in real life became worthless a long time ago. It still had merit up until 100 years ago, but not since then.
We've been creating abundance in practically everything since 100 years ago via technology, and money is only usable in an environment of scarcity - the only reason its still used today because people are used to it and have learned to associate anything else with preconceived notions that are fundamentally false - to top it off, those who are in positions of power and enjoy status quo rely on lack of relevant/general information floating among the general populace as it helps them manipulate everyone.

Star Trek as it was envisioned by Roddenberry has degraded over time because of incompetent writers who felt the need to dumb it all down and bring it closer to 'today' (which in itself is absurd).

Money (as it was explained in Trek several times), doesn't exist in the Federation.
I would concede the notion that the Federation and its citizens would have to use money when dealing with alien species outside the Federation, but not so when it comes to dealing inside Federation.

If people have a hard time wrapping their brains around what would motivate humans to working without any kind of reward... I would suggest the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y

Also, today in real life, we can easily automate over 75% of the global workforce.

funny thing about automation - it was mentioned in the early days of TNG, but then suddenly you saw more and more 'humanoids' 'working' on various repetitive tasks that machines of today can do easily.
Machines making machines... machines maintaining machines...

I mean seriously... Trek from Late TNG onward severely dumbed down a lot of the technology until it became: early 21st century (and some of its immature childish mentality you can see today) in the late 24th century ... in space.

Some of you should really educate yourselves on real life technological progress over the past 100 years and just how much fictional notions of 'cost' and 'value' inhibit us from progressing on a technological scale a lot faster.
When you ignore 'cost', 'value' and 'money' overall... simply ask yourself, 'do we have enough resources and technology to pull something off in abundance' (the answer is almost always 'yes')
What you see in circulation today (of technology) is child's play compared to what we can actually accomplish if money was dumped entirely like Roddenberry did in early TNG.

I realize... coming from a capitalist culture that something like that seems outlandish... but honestly, I come from a capitalist environment myself and I find it more than plausible (albeit different and a lot less 'restrictive' as shown on Trek).
 
...For all we know, the TNG society, too, is clinging onto outdated ideas out of sheer cultural inertia, hence the menial workers.

Or then everything is automated to such a degree that the only thing left for people to do is scrubbing of floors or shellfish, or flying into deep space and fighting bug-eyed monsters in the hopes of getting at least some sense of accomplishment and thrill.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Wow, I had no idea we had authorities on the social and economic systems of the future around here.
 
Wow, I had no idea we had authorities on the social and economic systems of the future around here.
We became authorities only after carefull review of the "historical documents."

What I find absurd are people who project current day values and systems into ones of the future that don't (and were not supposed to) operate on the same principles.
You don't think it qualifies as "absurd" that over 150 alien species would possess the exact same economic system of zero compentsation for a individuals efforts?

Money (as it was explained in Trek several times), doesn't exist in the Federation.
"Money doesn't exist in the future" was mentioned only once, in First Contact.

We've been creating abundance in practically everything since 100 years ago via technology, and money is only usable in an environment of scarcity
But it isn't technology that creates that abundance, it was a economic system that rewards successful production with profit. Rewards the individual for their hard work (or smart work) with a paycheck, which they then use to live their lives . The capitalist system uses demand and supply to allocate resources in the only way that has been proven to work on a large scale, over a large period of time.

... and often end up saying numerous things are 'science fiction' or 'fantasy' because of their own lack of knowledge on the subject matter.
Not lack of knowledge, but carefully examination of examples of failed systems (many in the 20th century) that were supposedly going to replace the current system, but instead turn the lives of the people force to live under those "better systems" into a living hell.

When has your hypothedical system ever been proven too work over the course of centuries, under a wide variety of economic conditions? That's how capitalism was proven. It might not be perfect, but it does work.

I would concede the notion that the Federation and its citizens would have to use money when dealing with alien species outside the Federation, but not so when it comes to dealing inside Federation.
Quark sold his shuttle in Earth's solar System, for money. Maybe it was bought by the same guy who bought Jim Kirk's house (on Earth) years before?

Isn't Earth kind of in the middle of the Federation?

:)
 
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You don't think it qualifies as "absurd" that over 150 alien species would possess the exact same economic system of zero compentsation for a individuals efforts?
Naah. If all humans will buy it (har har), that's enough diversity already to cover all the bases.

"Money does (not?) exist in the future" was mentioned only once, in First Contact.
Of course money exists, at the very least the way Sherlock Holmes exists. The proper question is, does the UFP have or need money? Those questions are answered in Trek: Jim Kirk says "we" don't have money in the future (is he poor, perhaps?), and Jake Sisko says "I" don't have it and "we" don't need it (although apparently "I" very much needs it and "we" might well have it somewhere).

Semantic ambiguities aside, the Jake/Nog exchange from "In the Cards" does feature this very explicit statement by Nog:

"It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favour of some philosophy of self-enhancement."
Jake seems to accept this as perfectly accurate, so we're down to arguing how much the fairly ignorant, home-schooled army brat really knows about economics.

And of course money "went the way of the dinosaur", as Tom Paris very well knows. But exactly what it evolved into, we're not told, save for there now being this non-currency-based system of economics in use.

Timo Saloniemi
 
You don't think it qualifies as "absurd" that over 150 alien species would possess the exact same economic system of zero compentsation for a individuals efforts?

"Money doesn't exist in the future" was mentioned only once, in First Contact.

A economic system based on rewards is idiotic for a Trek setting (Federation especially because species that generally join it have similar values and are probably willing to give up a currency based system after they've seen the benefits of a non-currency based economy).
More on this below.

"Money doesn't exist...."
Also mentioned in DS9 by Jake and Nog (as Timo himself stated).
Voyager also mentioned it (per Tom Paris in 'Dark Frontier').
Early TNG at least directly implied it when Picard talked to the 3 survivors from the late 20th century in 'The Neutral Zone' who were found in stasis.


But it isn't technology that creates that abundance, it was a economic system that rewards successful production with profit. Rewards the individual for their hard work (or smart work) with a paycheck, which they then use to live their lives . The capitalist system uses demand and supply to allocate resources in the only way that has been proven to work on a large scale, over a large period of time.

The system based on rewards is idiotic in this day and age. It breeds incentive for repetitive work ONLY along with highly corrupt forms of behavior.
Money is created out debt (unless you already noticed) and its made out of thin air (nothing to support it).
This kind of model was directly implied to have been abandoned by Humans in early TNG.
Also, humans are using technology to create abundance (they have been since the industrial revolution took place).
Today we can automate majority of the global workforce (100% is also achievable if we set our mind to it) along with complete automation of the economy.

Roddenberry probably had the same idea in mind, but it got distorted by the time it got to the screen so only certain elements survived (most of which were emphasized in early TNG, but forgotten or abandoned later on in order to make the show 'closer to today').
Remember that this show was made for American TV - a capitalist audience.

Not lack of knowledge, but carefully examination of examples of failed systems (many in the 20th century) that were supposedly going to replace the current system, but instead turn the lives of the people force to live under those "better systems" into a living hell.

You are projecting. No one is suggesting that removal of money equates 'socialism', 'fascism' or 'communism' (except for those who intentionally project such notions).
Actually, one can easily argue that the US today is very fascist.
But to get back on the topic at hand... all of those 'isms' used money... they all used banks, they ALL had social stratification, they ALL had people in positions of power along with people working in servitude of others.

A resource based economy (as envisioned by Jacque Fresco decades ago) has none of that.

When has your hypothedical system ever been proven too work over the course of centuries, under a wide variety of economic conditions? That's how capitalism was proven. It might not be perfect, but it does work.

A resource based economy was NEVER tried in practice.
For that matter, a system that uses NO currency of any kind in any form ever existed (except during hunter-gatherer times when there was more than enough to go around in a specific portion of the land).

Capitalism only 'works' because it caters to the minority (those who are in power).
The said system doesn't address human needs and completely disregards this in favor of creating 'artificial scarcity' so it can perpetuate itself.
However, Capitalism already once crashed (back in 1929) when mechanization and automation were introduced in the industry.
Purchasing power was rock bottom, while production was sky high.
You had food, water and material goods in abundance, but no one could 'afford' them.
What kind of a SICK system is that?

Another crash is coming fast.
Only this time, people won't be able to move to any other 'sector'. Why?
Because robots and computers can (and will) replace Humans in EVERY possible field.
You don't require a full AI on top of that... just highly specialized systems - and those already existed for some time.
Machines can be programmed to do the work of humans thousands of times better, faster and more efficient.
They don't require pensions, sick-days, or health-care.
The industry is already going in this direction - its slow due to notions of 'cost' and 'value' (money) - however, from a resource/technological point of view, we had the capacity to automate most of things some time ago.

Quark sold his shuttle in Earth's solar System, for money. Maybe it was bought by the same guy who bought Jim Kirk's house (on Earth) years before?

Isn't Earth kind of in the middle of the Federation?

:)

Except that Quark is a Ferengi. A full fledged 'capitalist'.
Its only acceptable he would use terms as 'sold', 'afford' and 'value' (not to mention 'profit').
That doesn't mean however money was used (and nowhere in the episode was it stated).
To Quark, 'trade' could have the same euphemism as 'selling'.
On the other hand, its possible he found a non-Federation merchant who was currently located in SOL system and arranged for transport (because Quark doesn't like dealing with the Federation - as Nog himself noted to Jake, the idea that humans abandoned a currency based economy is 'incomprehensible' - more or less).
 
The Federation is a society where the government provides everything in exchange for it's people living selfless lives in service to the state. I just try not to look too closely at it, lest the concept get too absurd.

I see nothing absurd about it. In fact, I'd welcome that, without hessitation.
Because the current crop of politicians on top of the pyramid wherever you live are so trustworthy and honrable...

They would not even dare to think about abusing their power...
Translation, please.
 
Its only acceptable [Quark] would use terms as 'sold', 'afford' and 'value' (not to mention 'profit').

It is interesting to observe Nog engage in all sorts of transactions in "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" without ever using money; it's even more elegant than what he does with Jake in "Progress".

It is perhaps even more interesting that in "Progress", Nog is after money specifically (GPL, that is), and he "buys", "sells" and "trades", sometimes on "discount" - and it's Jake who readily sees that the exchanges not involving money are the ones bringing in the greatest profit.

In turn, "TFatGR" has Nog engaging in the very same things, only he never uses the expressions "buy" or "sell" and never involves any money in the process. Perhaps he learned something from the Federation kid?

Timo Saloniemi
 
I've always wondered how property and such is handled on Earth (members of the Federations do have currency, aka the Bolians have a banking system, which O'Brien helps rob in an episode where he's undercover...yeah I forgot the name), considering, without currency, I can't imagine people just happily agreeing to wherever the government tells them to live.

I mean, why does Jake Sisko from "The Visitor" seemingly gets a nice house in Louisiana when there's no monetary exchange involved? Prestige? Fame? Does Picard get a nicer house because he's on the flagship, while some secondary captain gets shoved into a studio apartment for not being well known?
 
Why is it that the common assumption is that if there is no currency, then the government must be making all the economic decisions?

The economics of Star Trek are "somewhat different", according to Picard. Sure, we can question whether he's the best source of information. He was speaking distractedly to Lily while trying to deal with a Borg infestation on his ship, and he's always been more of an optimist than a realist. Picard didn't say much more than the cliche "there's no money". That doesn't tell us anything about the economics of the Federation, except that it lacks one feature of our current economic system.
 
I think Deks explained things rather well and put it all into perspective. "Money" is an antiquated word, not only in the 24th century but the 21st as well. It used to be a physically tangible element, made of silver, cold, copper, and bronze (and maybe some other elements). Now it is very abstract. Of course, it can be converted into hard currency or "cash", but in reality it would be IMPOSSIBLE to convert all money into cash--there wouldn't be enough of it.

We do work on a credit system. We have "credit cards", after all.

I like to think of that whole "money doesn't exist" notion as really meaning that there's no longer hard currency used by the Federation. It's all "credits". Cash never changes hands. "Money" is a defunct name, replaced by "Credits."

In TNG we obvious saw people talk about having "bought" things. They had to use credits. But in the 24th century, we see people no longer obsessed with material things. Nobody starves, everybody has clothes and fine shelter, unless someone just wants to reject the system and live off the grid. I imagine people do get credits in exchange for their work. But it's usually people of extreme prominence that get to have multiple homes and private space craft.
 
"Money does (not?) exist in the future" was mentioned only once, in First Contact.
Thanks for pointing that out, I messed up Picard's quote. Went back and corrected it.

Point stand though, only once in all of Star Trek did anyone come right out and say that money doesn't exist, and there are a large number of example of money use, and not "just on the outside" of the Federation, and not "just by the Ferengi."

"It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favour of some philosophy of self-enhancement."
Jake seems to accept this as perfectly accurate, so we're down to arguing how much the fairly ignorant, home-schooled army brat really knows about economics.
Nog (as a Ferengi) likely know a lot more on the subject than Jake.

And Nog statement, at least the first part, makes perfect sense, Humans (your species) gave up currency. Currency is physical money, coins and banknotes.

Nog never said that the entire Federation, every species, gave up money.

"Money doesn't exist...."
Also mentioned in DS9 by Jake and Nog (as Timo himself stated).
But again, Nog said "gave up CURRENCY," and not money.

Here in America only about eight percent of our money is physical currency, over ninety percent of our money exists solely as electronic information. When I went to the grocery store yesterday, no currency left my purse, just a small plastic card that got swiped through a scanner.

The food was charged to my account, just like with Beverly's purchase in the first TNG episode. Money still changed hand, just not currency.

Voyager also mentioned it (per Tom Paris in 'Dark Frontier').
Problem there of course is Tom said money went the way of the dinosaur in the 22nd century, and there are numerous references of money use in the 23rd.

Early TNG at least directly implied it when Picard talked to the 3 survivors from the late 20th century in 'The Neutral Zone' who were found in stasis.
Picard never mentions money once in that episode.

Quark sold his shuttle in Earth's solar System, for money. Maybe it was bought by the same guy who bought Jim Kirk's house (on Earth) years before?
Except that Quark is a Ferengi. A full fledged 'capitalist'.
Its only acceptable he would use terms as 'sold', 'afford' and 'value' (not to mention 'profit').
So, you're saying that James T. Kirk was a "full fledged capitalist?"

You know, because Kirk (who is not a Ferengi) stated that he sold the house that he owned?

:)
 
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