Prime Directive: applies to all Fed Citizens as law, or just Starfleet

[Timo]

Re: Prime Directive: applies to all Fed Citizens as law, or just Starf

We might say John Gill was authorized to be on Ekos but not to do on Ekos. Despite this, he never got charged with a prime directive violation, not as such. Although this may have more to do with the fact that when he was finally located, his ability to take in Miranda or charges or indeed any sort coherent speech was severely limited...

Or perhaps the PD applies to everyone who is or ever was in Starfleet. Merrick, who attended the Academy but did not graduate, would thus qualify.

The third possibility is that Merrick did graduate, eventually. He just got washed out once, which reflects badly on him because of the specific reason for the failure (apparently, he didn't pick the right choice quickly enough out of "A: I will eat local children for breakfast, B: I will expend my crew in gladiator games at earliest opportunity, C: I will sacrifice my life to keep natives from learning that their planet is in fact not flat nor supported by four elephants riding on a giant turtle"). But he got over it, reapplied, and gained a commission.

It was described as Federation Merchant Marines.

To nitpick, "he went into the merchant service". Doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't have been Starfleet merchant service, of course.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Prime Directive: applies to all Fed Citizens as law, or just Starf

We might say John Gill was authorized to be on Ekos but not to do on Ekos. Despite this, he never got charged with a prime directive violation, not as such. Although this may have more to do with the fact that when he was finally located, his ability to take in Miranda or charges or indeed any sort coherent speech was severely limited...

Gill may, or may not, have been a Starfleet officer. We know he taught at the Academy, and Kirk was one of his students.

Regardless of his Starfleet status, Gill was an important Federation official. And thus the Prime Directive applies to him. The PD is a Federation law, not a Starfleet law.

 

[Timo]

Re: Prime Directive: applies to all Fed Citizens as law, or just Starf

...Only according to "Bread and Circuses", though, and that's being debated above. There's no other evidence to establish whether the PD is a UFP or SF rule AFAIK.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Re: Prime Directive: applies to all Fed Citizens as law, or just Starf

...Only according to "Bread and Circuses", though, and that's being debated above. There's no other evidence to establish whether the PD is a UFP or SF rule AFAIK.

Timo Saloniemi

Logic should really dictate the answer to this.

Does the UFP want private citizens running around contaminating primitive cultures?

 

[Darth Duck]

Re: Prime Directive: applies to all Fed Citizens as law, or just Starf

...Only according to "Bread and Circuses", though, and that's being debated above. There's no other evidence to establish whether the PD is a UFP or SF rule AFAIK.

Timo Saloniemi

Logic should really dictate the answer to this.

Does the UFP want private citizens running around contaminating primitive cultures?

Maybe they do. Think about it, if a private Andorian trader stumbles upon a planet filled with "primitives" that happens to be strategically located near the Breen border or whatever and contaminates the culture, maybe Starfleet gets involved. Gains the Federation a new foothold in the region.

 

[R. Star]

Re: Prime Directive: applies to all Fed Citizens as law, or just Starf

No, it suggests that he was transferred to a Starfleet facility because he is a Starfleet officer. If the arresting officer was from Starfleet, he would have said "Starfleet Security" rather than "Federation Security."

As I said in the part of my previous post you selectively editted out, the terms Federation and Starfleet are often used interchangibly. For example "Federation starship Enterprise" Unless you mean the Enterprise isn't really in Starfleet?

By that logic, no one in the FBI would ever be involved in counter-espionage

You're suggesting that say... the CIA and FBI don't keep information from each other if it's in their interests? That's... a very ideal belief on your part.

Starfleet doesn't have grand juries, it has courts-martial. A grand jury is by definition a civilian judicial institution.

Quark was initially arrested by Odo in "The Ascent" to be handed over to the Federation grand jury on Inferna Prime, indicating that the Bajoran government has entered into an extradition treaty with the UFP. Only later in the episode did we find out Quark was to be a witness rather than a defendant -- presumably meaning the request for his arrest was made by the Federation to the Bajorans as an intimidation tactic, perhaps to illustrate that he could face charges, too, and that Bajor would not protect him. But either way, an extradition treaty is more than enough for Quark to be subject to the Federation judicial system if he violates Federation law while in its territory.

So Quark is a Bajorian citizen now? Makes sense they'd have extraditions, but it'd also make equal sense that the Ferengi government would habitually protect it's "businessmen" too.

But to the point, how do you know Starfleet doesn't have grand juries? If they function as the main court of the Federation you would have to assume they do. I see no evidence on screen to suggest otherwise.

Well, the interference in that episode was clearly illegal. We don't know the details about the Federation Charter's non-interference directive, so we don't know when it has or has not been broken in other episodes.

Uh.. Klingon Civil War interference however indirect comes to mind. Interference in the Cardassian/Klingon War. Interference in the Romulan dissident movement, I can go on. The Federation does what it wants when it's in their interest.

 

[Sci]

Re: Prime Directive: applies to all Fed Citizens as law, or just Starf

No, it suggests that he was transferred to a Starfleet facility because he is a Starfleet officer. If the arresting officer was from Starfleet, he would have said "Starfleet Security" rather than "Federation Security."

As I said in the part of my previous post you selectively editted out, the terms Federation and Starfleet are often used interchangibly.

No, they're really not.

For example "Federation starship Enterprise" Unless you mean the Enterprise isn't really in Starfleet?

It isn't in Starfleet. You can't be in Starfleet if you're not a person who has either enlisted or holds a commission.

It is a Starfleet ship, yes, but that doesn't identify its nationality, since "Starfleet" can be used as a generic term for any interstellar state's space force. That's why it's called a Federation starship -- that identifies its nationality, which the term "Starfleet" does not. Same way it's meaningless to call the Enterprise a "Navy" ship in real life -- it's meaningful to call it United States Ship Enterprise, but there are any number of navies in the world.

By that logic, no one in the FBI would ever be involved in counter-espionage

You're suggesting that say... the CIA and FBI don't keep information from each other if it's in their interests? That's... a very ideal belief on your part.

You are shifting the goalposts now. No one ever said the FBI and CIA don't keep information from one-another, but your claim was that if anything about the Genesis Planet was classified at all, then a civilian Federation-wide law enforcement agency wouldn't be let in on it. I pointed out that this is an implausible argument, because we already have a national civilian law enforcement agency charged with protecting classified information -- not all classified information stays in the hands of the military today, and there's no reason to think it will in the future.

Starfleet doesn't have grand juries, it has courts-martial. A grand jury is by definition a civilian judicial institution.

Quark was initially arrested by Odo in "The Ascent" to be handed over to the Federation grand jury on Inferna Prime, indicating that the Bajoran government has entered into an extradition treaty with the UFP. Only later in the episode did we find out Quark was to be a witness rather than a defendant -- presumably meaning the request for his arrest was made by the Federation to the Bajorans as an intimidation tactic, perhaps to illustrate that he could face charges, too, and that Bajor would not protect him. But either way, an extradition treaty is more than enough for Quark to be subject to the Federation judicial system if he violates Federation law while in its territory.

So Quark is a Bajorian citizen now?

He doesn't have to be. He lives on a Bajoran space station, and that makes him subject to Bajoran law. If the Bajoran government receives an extradition request from the Federation for him, then they are obliged to arrest him and turn him over to the Federation by treaty.

To make a comparison to modern law: my grandfather is not a United States citizen. He is a Canadian citizen and a permanent resident of the United States; that makes him subject to U.S. law. If it were to turn out that while traveling, he had, say, violated British law, and the U.K. filed an extradition request with the U.S., then the U.S. government would have every right to arrest him and extradite him to the United Kingdom if he were found on U.S. territory. His only option to evade such arrest would be to flee to Canada or to another country and hope they would not honor any extradition requests from the U.K.

Makes sense they'd have extraditions, but it'd also make equal sense that the Ferengi government would habitually protect it's "businessmen" too.

I'm sure the Ferengi Embassy on Bajor and the Ferengi Embassy on Earth would both do everything in their power to protect Quark and his rights as a Ferengi citizen. And I'm sure that if Quark had evaded Odo and fled to Ferenginar, the Ferengi government would refuse to honor an extradition request from the Federation. But that doesn't mean there's much else they could do beyond protest and try to work out a deal with the Federation prosecutor.

But to the point, how do you know Starfleet doesn't have grand juries? If they function as the main court of the Federation

Objection. You are supposing something not in evidence.

Which is a more plausible interpretation: That the Federation operates grand juries that are called "Federation grand juries," or that Starfleet is the Federation's entire judicial system even though it is not called such, referred to as such, or in any way indicated to be such?

Well, the interference in that episode was clearly illegal. We don't know the details about the Federation Charter's non-interference directive, so we don't know when it has or has not been broken in other episodes.

Uh.. Klingon Civil War interference however indirect comes to mind. Interference in the Cardassian/Klingon War. Interference in the Romulan dissident movement, I can go on. The Federation does what it wants when it's in their interest.

Again, it's unclear what the details are of the Federation Charter's prohibition on foreign interference, and therefore it is unclear whether or not any of those particular interventions are illegal under the Federation Charter.