• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Potential economic reason for missions to Titan?

TerriO

Writer-type human
Premium Member
Just got this press release from the JPL on the Titan mission, and it seems like there might actually be an argument developing for economic reasons to go back to Titan. I know I've certainly heard the argument time and again that we won't actually move forward with manned exploration until there's a legitimate economic reason behind it (basically, whether or not people can make a buck). Could this be the discovery they've been looking for? :vulcan:

NEWS RELEASE: 2008-025 Feb. 13, 2008

Titan's Surface Organics Surpass Oil Reserves on Earth

Saturn's orange moon Titan has hundreds of times more liquid hydrocarbons than all the known oil and natural gas reserves on Earth, according to new data from NASA's Cassini spacecraft. The hydrocarbons rain from the sky, collecting in vast deposits that form lakes and dunes.


The new findings from the study led by Ralph Lorenz, Cassini radar team member from the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, Md., are reported in the Jan. 29 issue of the Geophysical Research Letters.

"Titan is just covered in carbon-bearing material—it's a giant factory of organic chemicals," said Lorenz. "This vast carbon inventory is an important window into the geology and climate history of Titan."

At a balmy minus 179 degrees Celsius (minus 290 degrees Fahrenheit), Titan is a far cry from Earth. Instead of water, liquid hydrocarbons in the form of methane and ethane
are present on the moon's surface, and tholins probably make up its dunes. The term "tholins" was coined by Carl Sagan in 1979 to describe the complex organic molecules at the heart of prebiotic chemistry.


Cassini has mapped about 20 percent of Titan's surface with radar. Several hundred lakes and seas have been observed, with each of several dozen estimated to contain more hydrocarbon liquid than Earth's oil and gas reserves. The dark dunes that run along the equator contain a volume of organics several hundred times larger than Earth's coal
reserves.


Proven reserves of natural gas on Earth total 130 billion tons, enough to provide 300 times the amount of energy the entire United States uses annually for residential heating,
cooling and lighting. Dozens of Titan's lakes individually have the equivalent of at least this much energy in the form of methane and ethane.


"This global estimate is based mostly on views of the lakes in the northern polar regions. We have assumed the south might be similar, but we really don't yet know how much
liquid is there," said Lorenz. Cassini's radar has observed the south polar region only once, and only two small lakes were visible. Future observations of that area are
planned during Cassini's proposed extended mission.

Scientists estimated Titan's lake depth by making some general assumptions based on lakes on Earth. They took the average area and depth of lakes on Earth, taking into account the nearby surroundings, like mountains. On Earth, the lake depth is often 10 times less than the height of nearby terrain.

"We also know that some lakes are more than 10 meters or so deep because they appear literally pitch-black to the radar. If they were shallow we'd see the bottom, and wedon't,"
said Lorenz.

The question of how much liquid is on the surface is an important one because methane is a strong greenhouse gas on Titan as well as on Earth, but there is much more of it on
Titan. If all the observed liquid on Titan is methane, it would only last a few million years, because as methane escapes into Titan's atmosphere, it breaks down and escapes
into space. If the methane were to run out, Titan could become much colder. Scientists believe that methane might be supplied to the atmosphere by venting from the interior in
cryovolcanic eruptions. If so, the amount of methane, and the temperature on Titan, may have fluctuated dramatically in Titan's past.

"We are carbon-based life, and understanding how far along the chain of complexity towards life that chemistry can go in an environment like Titan will be important in understanding the origins of life throughout the universe," added Lorenz.

Cassini's next radar flyby of Titan is on Feb. 22, when the radar instrument will observe the Huygens probe landing site.

For images and more information visit: http://www.nasa.gov/cassini and
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov .

The Cassini-Huygens mission is a cooperative project of NASA, the European Space Agency and the Italian Space Agency. JPL, a division of the California Institute of
Technology in Pasadena, manages the Cassini-Huygens mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. The Cassini orbiter was designed, developed and assembled at JPL. The radar instrument was built by JPL and the Italian Space Agency, working with team members from the United States and several European countries.
-end-
 
I imagine it would be quite the challenge to find a way to economically move fuel from Titan to Earth.

Some challenges I see:

- EROEI (Energy-Returned-On-Energy-Invested): We have to get more energy from the hydrocarbons than it takes move them from Titan to Earth.

- How big of a supply line do we need to move a useful amount of fuel to earth? How much will the infrastructure cost? The world currrenlty uses about 85 million barrels of oil a day and enough oil every year to fill a cubic mile.

If we are going to get energy from space, then I think a better investment would be space based solar.
 
Well, moving from just about anywhere in space to just about anywhere else in space is the easy part, as long as there's no hurry, since you can coast indefinitely or use solar sails or low-powered ion thrusters to get around. And Titan's gravity is low, only 0.138g, so launching things from there wouldn't be difficult. The bottleneck, as always, is fighting Earth's intense gravity, whether to lift ships off from Earth or to decelerate them to soft landings. Developing an economical, practical means of getting between Earth and space is a crucial first step in making any ongoing activity in space cost-effective. If that's tackled, with something like a space elevator, say, then ferrying material from Titan to Earth would require relatively little energy or cost.
 
Well it costs less than $100 for a barrel of oil here and we have many hundreds or more years of it left.

But it costs MILLION$ just to get a pound of anything into orbit, let alone back from Saturn? It cost nearly a BILLION$ to get a 700lb probe to Titan.

You really wanna do the math on what a gallon of Titan gas would cost????? Didn't think so...

;-)
 
I think it would cost far less to collect cow fart then going to Taitan for that stuff, and I mean it in a literal fashion.
 
JustAFriend said:
Well it costs less than $100 for a barrel of oil here and we have many hundreds or more years of it left.
Well, hundreds of years left at a declining rate of production. I think most experts are saying that oil production will peak in the next ten years, assuming it hasn't already. Even oil companies are slowly starting to admit to the reality of peak oil.

This is one forecast:
Updated World Oil Forecasts, including Saudi Arabia

qsl2jk.jpg


World wide oil production is actually around 75 million barrels per day - the 85 mbpd figure I mistakenly stated earlier is actually total liquid fuels.
 
JustAFriend said:
But it costs MILLION$ just to get a pound of anything into orbit, let alone back from Saturn?

I already addressed that. As I said, with current launch technologies, any ongoing exploitation of space would be economically impractical. But if we can find an economical way of getting into orbit, such as a space elevator, that opens up everything else.

Hmm, I wonder. Is there any way a spacecraft could be powered by hydrocarbon burning? I guess methane could be used as a reactant/propellant, combined with LOX, say.
 
One drawback with hydrocarbon import from Titan (other than economic and technological issues) is that Titan hydrocarbons are primarily methane and ethane. Most of the "peak oil" worries relate to crude oil, rather than natural gas which is still fairly plentiful. Titan doesn't have the proper geological settings for hydrocarbon maturation and thus is not likely to have any of the longer-chain alkanes that are important for gasoline, diesel, fuel oil, etc.

-MEC
 
Gee, what's wrong with you people? The answer is simple...

We just need to build the Nostromo and go mining.

We just gotta make sure that 'mother' doesn't respond to intersteller S.O.S beacons. :D
 
Of course, Titan isn't the only place in the system you can find methane. It's abundant in Jovian atmospheres, and there's plenty of methane ice on the outer moons, icy asteroids, comets, and dwarf planets.

In fact, just the other day, methane was detected in the atmosphere of an exosolar "hot Jupiter," which was the first successful detection of organic molecules on an exoplanet. Methane's pretty common around the universe.
 
Well I agree with the notion that for the private sector to get involved in space there's nothing like the profit motive to get the right people thinking.
 
This is great new as it could be a valuable resource for building space colonies, might be cheaper to get their carbon from Titan than from Earth.
 
Meredith said:
This is great new as it could be a valuable resource for building space colonies, might be cheaper to get their carbon from Titan than from Earth.

It would be easier to get carbon from near-Earth asteroids or Main Belt asteroids, since they're closer.
 
Christopher said:
But if we can find an economical way of getting into orbit, such as a space elevator, that opens up everything else.
And that's a huge "if".

I'm very skeptical of the space elevator concept (at least being able to keep one stable over the long term), and doubt that you'll see one built within the next couple of hundred years (if ever.)

I think we have a better shot at producing artificial anti-gravity before that happens (and that's pretty speculative. :))

---------------
 
I think the Earth should still concentrate on going completely oil/gas free, the reserves on Titan could be used in the future for fueling exploration vehicles, spacecraft could head out towards the outer solar system, refuel along the way and then refuel on the way back for a fast return journey.
 
scotthm said:
Christopher said:
But if we can find an economical way of getting into orbit, such as a space elevator, that opens up everything else.
And that's a huge "if".

I'm very skeptical of the space elevator concept (at least being able to keep one stable over the long term), and doubt that you'll see one built within the next couple of hundred years (if ever.)

Well, there are other options, such as rotating orbital skyhooks, or Freeman Dyson's laser launch system (which uses a laser to heat the atmosphere beneath a craft into plasma, causing a series of explosions that propel the craft upward, so that the craft needs no onboard fuel for launch). A lot of people are working on ideas for economical launch systems. If one doesn't work, there's probably another out there that will.
 
There is an economical reason to go to space without the oil in Titan. I heard about the Astriod belts have trillions of dollars worth of resources and the moon with it's Fusion power supply. The big question really is though. How much are the governments around the world willing to spend on a project that may or may not be financially lucrative. The British government gave up on Space just before the lucrative market of Satellites came.
 
Christopher said:
...or Freeman Dyson's laser launch system (which uses a laser to heat the atmosphere beneath a craft into plasma, causing a series of explosions that propel the craft upward, so that the craft needs no onboard fuel for launch).

The laser launch system was originally proposed by Arthur Kantrowitz, not Freeman Dyson.

Stormrage said:
I heard about the Astriod belts have trillions of dollars worth of resources...

True, but as Krafft Ehricke (RIP) pointed out to Dandridge Cole (RIP) - after reading the latter's 1963 Space World article, $50,000,000,000,000 from the Asteroids: Most Startling Report of the Space Age Answers Critics of Our Space Budget - the act of placing potentially astronomical quantities of formerly precious metals and organics onto the world market would crash their prices to such an extent that any attempt to actually mine them would be economically self-defeating.

TGT
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top