Spoilers Post Nepenthe Uneasiness Re: Chabon

[Arpy]

After watching the latest episode of PIC, I’m wondering about Chabon being more of a TOS fan than a TNG one. Picard wasn’t the character previously he’s suggested to be here. He wasn’t a “rampaging id” monster. Not as much as Kirk, from the series that Chabon loved so much that he said it “rewired his brain” and that he’s dropped references to in this series left and right — Gorn, Tranya, Kzinti, etc. The way Riker called him arrogant bugged me — like he was talking now in a way we couldn’t when they were on the ship. That’s not what was happening then. And the way Picard silenced Riker with a raised palm at Riker’s dinner table really bugged me.

Also, details were wrong. Riker was last a captain not a commander, and Troi says to imagine their dinner table discussion to figure things out as like the Ready Room on the Enterprise but it was the Observation Lounge where they sat at at the table, not the Ready Room.

I love the series dearly and can’t stand the caustic haters, but this reinterpretation of Picard seems like it's manufacturing inauthentic and needless drama in an already rich series and disingenuously reframing the original.

That more than a couple of replies said “Nepenthe” was the best episode so far or that the series is now really taking off had me scratching my head a little. I loved this series without needing to seeing Riker and Troi, so now seeing them here and them characterizing Picard in the way embittered Raffi had...it's troubling.

 

[Lord Garth]

After watching the latest episode of PIC, I’m wondering about Chabon being more of a TOS fan than a TNG one.

Why else do you think I like Picard so much and have said "In Chabon, I Trust"?

But I'm probably the wrong person to weigh in.

 

[KennyB]

They did have discussions in his ready room, and Chabon addressed the "commander mistake" in his weekly Q&A on Instagram. He said basically that in Picards mind he always thinks of him as his #1/commander on the Enterprise. You can look on IG for his exact quote. I trust Chabon as a fan and a writer.

 

[Vger23]

Picard was absolutely an arrogant, ego-driven leader. No question about it. It was pointed out to him several times in TNG, and has been a consistent complaint about the character since day one. Just because he hides it all between a dignified, thoughtful,caring and effective style doesn't mean he is not a cocky, self-assured, arrogant man. Because he is. And it always worked for him.

I don't think Chabon "doesn't understand Picard" or TNG. I think he understands it perfectly, and this show is addressing those flaws and his past in much the same way TWOK forced Kirk to face his character flaws and issues that had always worked for him in the past as well

Also, although Picard called Riker "Commander" they still acknowledged that Riker and Troi had their son in space, which goes right back to Riker and Troi being on the Titan. I think, in-universe, it was just a slip by Picard.

 

[Phily B]

Season 1 Picard was 100% an arrogant arsehole a lot of the time.

I mean imagine being someone who isn't on senior staff and how he may appear, especially in earlier seasons. He started to mellow out big time though, just like Stewart in real life seemed to.

 

[XCV330]

Lily Sloan wasn't talking to Kirk about breaking his little ships.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think Chabon "doesn't understand Picard" or TNG. I think he understands it perfectly, and this show is addressing those flaws and his past in much the same way TWOK forced Kirk to face his character flaws and issues that had always worked for him in the past as well

Indeed. I think Chabon is far more cognizant of Picard as a flawed human rather than the Hero of the Federation.

 

[Vger23]

Indeed. I think Chabon is far more cognizant of Picard as a flawed human rather than the Hero of the Federation.

I am starting to see now why I have a difference in opinion from other fans about the direction the series has chosen to take, particularly with the character of Picard.

I think many fans found Picard's apparent white knight perfection to be inspirational and perhaps aspirational. But I never felt that way, and it actually made me dislike the character somwhat. Then along comes this new series, and it begins to peel the onion back on the character and show us that this is a flawed man just like everyone else. But to me this revelation (affirmation?) is far more inspirational and aspirational than anything before. And the reason is that Picard was obviously a massively successful leader despite these character traits and flaws and imperfections. To me that is far more powerful and relatable, because it shows that we can move beyond our weaknesses, despite the fact that we all have them, to achieve great things.

Quite frankly, I view the story of the PIC series around the individual character to basically be the same things that are being revealed / played out about the Federation and humanity. It's the same story, being played out on a macro scale in parallel with Picard's story.

 

[Arpy]

Why else do you think I like Picard so much and have said "In Chabon, I Trust"?

But I'm probably the wrong person to weigh in.

Yes.

They did have discussions in his ready room, and Chabon addressed the "commander mistake" in his weekly Q&A on Instagram. He said basically that in Picards mind he always thinks of him as his #1/commander on the Enterprise. You can look on IG for his exact quote. I trust Chabon as a fan and a writer.

I trust in him as both as well (still love Wonderboys, esp), but I don't know if he's not too used to TOS or his contemporary fiction, which are more his passions. Although they had some discussions in the Ready Room, the room the show was famous for where they did most of their lengthy discussions at the long table was the Observation Lounge...ask whoever wrote "These Are the Voyages..."

Season 1 Picard was 100% an arrogant arsehole a lot of the time.

I mean imagine being someone who isn't on senior staff and how he may appear, especially in earlier seasons. He started to mellow out big time though, just like Stewart in real life seemed to.

I kind of disagree. But also, you are referring to him in Season 1, while the series was finding itself, not who we've known the character to be for 35 years. And to his dearest friends?

Lily Sloan wasn't talking to Kirk about breaking his little ships.

Lily herself said that the crew wasn't used to Picard acting that way. That was Picard acting uncharacteristically himself because of the trauma the Borg caused.

Indeed. I think Chabon is far more cognizant of Picard as a flawed human rather than the Hero of the Federation.

I don't expect him to be "Hero of the Federation" which he is in both interpretations, as are most our characters, but not this figure that is so queasily disrespectful or that inspires such resentment from those around him.

 

[fireproof78]

I think many fans found Picard's apparent white knight perfection to be inspirational and perhaps aspirational. But I never felt that way, and it actually made me dislike the character somwhat. Then along comes this new series, and it begins to peel the onion back on the character and show us that this is a flawed man just like everyone else. But to me this revelation (affirmation?) is far more inspirational and aspirational than anything before. And the reason is that Picard was obviously a massively successful leader despite these character traits and flaws and imperfections. To me that is far more powerful and relatable, because it shows that we can move beyond our weaknesses, despite the fact that we all have them, to achieve great things.

Same for me. I don't need white knights-I need flawed heroes that go on despite flaws, mistakes and failings.

As Picard would say "If we are going to be damned let us be damned for who we really are." Guess what? WE, the contemporary audience, are not white knights and don't live in ivory towers.

Quite frankly, I view the story of the PIC series around the individual character to basically be the same things that are being revealed / played out about the Federation and humanity. It's the same story, being played out on a macro scale in parallel with Picard's story.

I agree on this point as well.

 

[Arpy]

I am starting to see now why I have a difference in opinion from other fans about the direction the series has chosen to take, particularly with the character of Picard.
...
But to me this revelation (affirmation?) is far more inspirational and aspirational than anything before. And the reason is that Picard was obviously a massively successful leader despite these character traits and flaws and imperfections. To me that is far more powerful and relatable, because it shows that we can move beyond our weaknesses, despite the fact that we all have them, to achieve great things.

I appreciate that in other characters but here for me it just seems like retconning. And there's so much going on in this series, that he personally is going through too, not just externally, that you don't need to add in that he's an overbearing arrogant jackass -- wasn't that Riker's problem with Jellico in contrast with Picard?

Quite frankly, I view the story of the PIC series around the individual character to basically be the same things that are being revealed / played out about the Federation and humanity. It's the same story, being played out on a macro scale in parallel with Picard's story.

That's interesting. You think the Federation he's a part of (the drop becomes the ocean, the ocean become the drop, to paraphrase DS9) is having to look inwardly and reexamine itself... Another way the series is an allegory for the real world, maybe.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

I think many fans found Picard's apparent white knight perfection to be inspirational and perhaps aspirational. But I never felt that way, and it actually made me dislike the character somwhat. Then along comes this new series, and it begins to peel the onion back on the character and show us that this is a flawed man just like everyone else. But to me this revelation (affirmation?) is far more inspirational and aspirational than anything before. And the reason is that Picard was obviously a massively successful leader despite these character traits and flaws and imperfections. To me that is far more powerful and relatable, because it shows that we can move beyond our weaknesses, despite the fact that we all have them, to achieve great things.

This is really interesting to me because I kinda feel the same way but come from the absolute opposite direction - I have never even slightly disliked him - I love Jean-Luc (and I mean this NOT in the casual "oh I love this character, he's cool" way, I mean this as in I am IN LOVE with him) - but I also see his many, many very human flaws; and that's precisely why I have never bought into the "white knight perfection" myth that so many people seem to so desperately want to believe that I sometimes seriously think they watch a completely different TNG than I do. I'm usually the first to defend Jean-Luc's specific actions in specific situations, yes, but his overall character is far from perfect, and, as I've said many times, his flaws were there during TNG also, they just never hit people over the head because he (and the show) hid them behind his "invincible captain" mask. But now that the captain's mask is no longer there and people are "exposed" to the "man behind the captain's mask" under less than ideal circumstances for him personally (I'm pretty sure his many flaws would NOT have come out this strongly if he was a happily retired admiral, it's definitely also a reaction to the circumstances and his bitterness about Starfleet), they shriek and don't want to see it because it "destroys the character". No, it doesn't destroy the character - it destroys the weird ideal PICTURE of him that they had in their minds.

/ramble

In short: Whenever someone asks me "why do you love Picard so much", I reply "I love him because he is perfectly imperfect", and that sums it all up for me. And I guess now people might finally even understand what I mean.

 

[Beckerjr]

Indeed. I think Chabon is far more cognizant of Picard as a flawed human rather than the Hero of the Federation.

I'd say is both. The latter was just glossed over by TNG. Chabon has brought the former front and center on this show and is making Picard confront it.

 

[Arpy]

This is really interesting to me because I kinda feel the same way but come from the absolute opposite direction - I have never even slightly disliked him - I love Jean-Luc (and I mean this NOT in the casual "oh I love this character, he's cool" way, I mean this as in I am IN LOVE with him) - but I also see his many, many very human flaws; and that's precisely why I have never bought into the "white knight perfection" myth that so many people seem to so desperately want to believe that I sometimes seriously think they watch a completely different TNG than I do. I'm usually the first to defend Jean-Luc's specific actions in specific situations, yes, but his overall character is far from perfect, and, as I've said many times, his flaws were there during TNG also, they just never hit people over the head because he (and the show) hid them behind his "invincible captain" mask. But now that the captain's mask is no longer there and people are "exposed" to the "man behind the captain's mask" under less than ideal circumstances for him personally (I'm pretty sure his many flaws would NOT have come out this strongly if he was a happily retired admiral, it's definitely also a reaction to the circumstances and his bitterness about Starfleet), they shriek and don't want to see it because it "destroys the character". No, it doesn't destroy the character - it destroys the weird ideal PICTURE of him that they had in their minds.

/ramble

In short: Whenever someone asks me "why do you love Picard so much", I reply "I love him because he is perfectly imperfect", and that sums it all up for me. And I guess now people might finally even understand what I mean.

I agree with you that he always had flaws -- that's how TNG was different from TOS. They weren't these larger than life archetypes of characters that we saw in TOS. Picard saw five lights; he didn't give that to Madred but he needed to tell Troi. But I don't think it's that Picard's flaws are simply more noticeable now without him in the roll of captain.

(Is this what the current "powers that be" would have us believe in the same way the old ones Berman & Braga used to say that two Trek series were too many because there weren't enough original stories in the universe to tell? Cut to today there being 5+ series and a movie in the works.)

It's not that we're seeing him out of uniform. It's that he's being interpreted differently now with hostility from others and boorishness from himself.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

It's not that we're seeing him out of uniform. It's that he's being interpreted differently now with hostility from others and boorishness from himself.

No, just him being out of uniform would not have resulted in the way he is now, I agree with that. If he had retired from Starfleet after a long and successful career, he'd probably still be strolling around Starfleet Command, maybe even give a guest lecture at the Academy every now and then, etc, etc. He'd probably still become grumpier and more irritable tho - because that's just how he is, and old age tends to amplify traits like this.

It's, as I said, also the circumstances surrounding him. He's bitter and resentful because of his rather ... "non-glorious" Starfleet departure. And he's let quite a few people down also. He retreated onto his vineyard, which was the only place for him to go (I'd even go as far to say he's punishing himself by doing so because the vineyard was NEVER a place where he wanted to end up) because he's literally never had anything other than Starfleet and that vineyard. Starfleet was his life, it was all that mattered to him, and he sacrificed a lot during his service, and he went through a lot also. To then be rejected and even shunned by that very organization... it must have been a severe (perhaps THE most severe) blow to a proud man like him. It shattered him, in more than one way, and the isolation he put himself under on the vineyard didn't help either. He's not the man he used to be - but I'd be more inclined to blame the circumstances, not him (but then, I am obviously somewhat biased, if it were up to me I'd clean up the plate by giving everyone who's dissing him a nice earful of bad words, now that we can have these on Star Trek) - but I'm still sensing bits and pieces of the old, TNG-style Jean-Luc. He's still there, he's just buried under a whole bunch of emotional rocks. If I know him, however, I'd say there's a good chance he'll dig himself out in some way if he gets the right incentive to do so.

 

[Arpy]

No, just him being out of uniform would not have resulted in the way he is now, I agree with that. If he had retired from Starfleet after a long and successful career, he'd probably still be strolling around Starfleet Command, maybe even give a guest lecture at the Academy every now and then, etc, etc. He'd probably still become grumpier and more irritable tho - because that's just how he is, and old age tends to amplify traits like this.

It's, as I said, also the circumstances surrounding him. He's bitter and resentful because of his rather ... "non-glorious" Starfleet departure. And he's let quite a few people down also. He retreated onto his vineyard, which was the only place for him to go (I'd even go as far to say he's punishing himself by doing so because the vineyard was NEVER a place where he wanted to end up) because he's literally never had anything other than Starfleet and that vineyard. Starfleet was his life, it was all that mattered to him, and he sacrificed a lot during his service, and he went through a lot also. To then be rejected and even shunned by that very organization... it must have been a severe (perhaps THE most severe) blow to a proud man like him. It shattered him, in more than one way, and the isolation he put himself under on the vineyard didn't help either. He's not the man he used to be - but I'd be more inclined to blame the circumstances, not him (but then, I am obviously somewhat biased, if it were up to me I'd clean up the plate by giving everyone who's dissing him a nice earful of bad words, now that we can have these on Star Trek) - but I'm still sensing bits and pieces of the old, TNG-style Jean-Luc. He's still there, he's just buried under a whole bunch of emotional rocks. If I know him, however, I'd say there's a good chance he'll dig himself out in some way if he gets the right incentive to do so.

I love your signature, by the way. I loved watching that series

What a great cast.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I have heard in Star Trek captains of ships called commanders. Commander can be short hand for commanding officer. So, no issue for me if Picard calls Riker "Commander Riker".

My problem is that I could care less for the other characters on the show and I am developing a strong dislike for Jurati. I would like for her to be thrown out the airlock. And, it looks they have dropped her background as a Starfleet officer as she has never left Earth. All Starfleet personnel have left Earth at least once in their service careers.

 

[DaveyNY]

Jean-Luc had Will as his Number 1 for over seven years, calling him Commander became ingrained so much that now it slips out automatically.

Old Habits Die Hard.

 

[DaveyNY]

I have heard in Star Trek captains of ships called commanders. Commander can be short hand for commanding officer. So, no issue for me if Picard calls Riker "Commander Riker".

My problem is that I could care less for the other characters on the show and I am developing a strong dislike for Jurati. I would like for her to be thrown out the airlock. And, it looks they have dropped her background as a Starfleet officer as she has never left Earth. All Starfleet personnel have left Earth at least once in their service careers.

I don't believe that Agnes was ever really a Star Fleet Officer.
(I also don't remember that being said in the show?)

She is more like Prime Dr. Carol Marcus, a trained Scientist working with/for Star Fleet and assigned to Maddox and his project.

 

[Roboturner913]

If you're disliking a nuanced portrayal of Picard as a flawed, yet still basically good, human being, instead of being a cardboard cutout hero every week, then IDK. Just go watch TNG again. I like what they're doing with this series. There was more going on emotionally in one single episode this week than there was in the entire run of TNG combined.