When Picard took command of the stargazer in incident that killed the captain and injured the XO what rank was picard?.
Picard's rank
- Thread starter Mr Pointy Ears
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For some reason, the rank Lt. Commander keeps popping into my head regarding this. I may have read it somewhere at some point.
It wouldn't be that out of line, since Stargazer was a smaller ship, and it's not unheard of for an officer of a rank such as Lt. Commander, or Commander to captain a ship of his own. They are still referred to as "captain" by their crew.
It wouldn't be that out of line, since Stargazer was a smaller ship, and it's not unheard of for an officer of a rank such as Lt. Commander, or Commander to captain a ship of his own. They are still referred to as "captain" by their crew.
The only onscreen reference to that event was in "Tapestry", and no rank or timepoint was mentioned in that episode.
Also, the episode made no indication whatsoever that Picard would have gained command of the vessel in that incident. He could simply have grabbed the wheel when the Captain crocked, and saved the day, after which Starfleet pinned a medal on him and sent him back to his position as Scientist's Junior Mate 4th Class (Restricted) for the next five years.
There is no canonical data on when and how Picard actually gained command of the Stargazer, or how long he had it. "Relics" establishes that he had no prior starship commands, and "The Battle" establishes how he lost this first command of his in 2354, but that's pretty much it.
Timo Saloniemi
Also, the episode made no indication whatsoever that Picard would have gained command of the vessel in that incident. He could simply have grabbed the wheel when the Captain crocked, and saved the day, after which Starfleet pinned a medal on him and sent him back to his position as Scientist's Junior Mate 4th Class (Restricted) for the next five years.
There is no canonical data on when and how Picard actually gained command of the Stargazer, or how long he had it. "Relics" establishes that he had no prior starship commands, and "The Battle" establishes how he lost this first command of his in 2354, but that's pretty much it.
Timo Saloniemi
Wait, I always thought that Picard as just an ensign and then he toook over the stargazer when it's commander was killed... (Although I don't know that much about the incident)
There was some backstory written for Picard in the Writers' Bible, such as that he had commanded the Stargazer for 22 years. But that never made it on screen.
In the actual episodes, we saw Picard as a fresh Ensign in the flashbacks of "Tapestry", and his first assignment was going to be the Stargazer. We saw him as Captain in all subsequent appearances, including pseudo-flashbacks to the year the ship was lost in "The Battle" and "Violations". "Future Imperfect" falsely portrayed him as a future Ambassador, while "All Good Things..." somewhat more plausibly (that is, if you trust Q) suggested retirement as Captain. And "Tapestry" showed an alternate timeline where he stayed Lieutenant till the 2360s.
In dialogue, we never heard of a LtCmdr or Cmdr Picard, or heard any details of his adventures before the loss of the ship. So we're pretty much free to speculate as much as we like!
Timo Saloniemi
In the actual episodes, we saw Picard as a fresh Ensign in the flashbacks of "Tapestry", and his first assignment was going to be the Stargazer. We saw him as Captain in all subsequent appearances, including pseudo-flashbacks to the year the ship was lost in "The Battle" and "Violations". "Future Imperfect" falsely portrayed him as a future Ambassador, while "All Good Things..." somewhat more plausibly (that is, if you trust Q) suggested retirement as Captain. And "Tapestry" showed an alternate timeline where he stayed Lieutenant till the 2360s.
In dialogue, we never heard of a LtCmdr or Cmdr Picard, or heard any details of his adventures before the loss of the ship. So we're pretty much free to speculate as much as we like!
Timo Saloniemi
I don't think it's stated in "Tapestry" what the duty assignments are for Ensign Picard and his fellow graduates. Although, we do have Q mention that "Lieutenant Picard" didn't take command when the captain and first officer of the Stargazer were killed (as he did in the actual timeline not the altered junior science officer one).
"Future Imperfect" shows a false "Admiral" Picard while "All Good Things..." has Future-Picard become an ambassador after retiring as a captain from Starfleet. When the Future-Geordi visits Future-Picard at the vineyard in France, he says "Or should I call you Ambassador."
But you're right, we've only heard of Ensign, Lieutenant, and Captain Picard. Nothing in-between.
Triple-oops...
Right, Picard's assignment is not given. Corey Zweller gets the Ajax, though.
Just to clarify for the benefit of the public, Q doesn't say that Picard would have been a Lieutenant when taking command - he is speaking of Picard at unknown rank not taking command when the Captain fell, and thus eventually becoming this wussy blueshirted "Lieutenant Picard".
Right you are. And wrong I was.
Timo Saloniemi
Right, Picard's assignment is not given. Corey Zweller gets the Ajax, though.
Just to clarify for the benefit of the public, Q doesn't say that Picard would have been a Lieutenant when taking command - he is speaking of Picard at unknown rank not taking command when the Captain fell, and thus eventually becoming this wussy blueshirted "Lieutenant Picard".
Right you are. And wrong I was.
Timo Saloniemi
That's the way I remember it, but I can see how it could be taken that Q was referring to the 'real' time line rank.
As for his takeover of Command.. the theory of him taking command in a crisis and being promoted to captain later makes good sense to me. Especially if he was a junior officer.
It could be that in the crisis, he took command, then took the ship back to base where they'd receive a new or temporary command crew. From the report someone with the right amount of pips on their collar could suggest that Picard proved he has something to offer and he begins his ascent to being CO.
That makes more sense to me to see potential and test/train that potential instead of saying "Nice save. Have a starship."
I remember reading somewhere very early on in the show's life that his heroic efforts on the Stargazer earned him a triple promotion from Lt to Capt but I don't recall where I read that. In the novel The Valiant (non-canon, I know), he was a Lt Cmdr when that occurred.
I've always hoped we'd learn more about this incident and that era on screen in a MFTV movie or miniseries.
I've always hoped we'd learn more about this incident and that era on screen in a MFTV movie or miniseries.
The MJ Friedman novels do use the LtCmdr -> CO backstory, in a somewhat literal-minded interpretation of the Writers' Guide description of Picard's early heroics. It's not something that could be supported by onscreen evidence, though. And the Friedman books have become something of a standard for Stargazer history now. At least they're more palatable than the triple-promotion theory...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Timo, et al.,
Yes, that triple-promotion idea never made sense to me. I don't remember if that was in the series bible, but I do recall it was in a book about Picard's management style, therefore, not canon.
I like to think he was either a lt. cmdr. or cmdr., and either second or first officer, when the Stargazer's captain was killed and he took over the bridge.
Since the ship was, to paraphrase Picard in Relics, an old ship in danger of falling apart, Starfleet might have given him command because no other captain wanted some old rustbucket. This gave Picard a chance to prove his worth as a starship captain, commanding a bucket of bolts. Eventually, he was promoted to the rank of full captain. And he was rewarded later on by getting the newest, most advanced type of ship in Starfleet because of his record commanding Stargazer.
It is true that we don't know for sure if Q merely referred to Picard temporarily or permanently taking command after the aforementioned yet unnamed captain was killed.
Come to think of it, a lot of the ST characters have similar gaps in their rank and assignment histories.
We do know Riker was on the Pegasus as an ensign, then on the Potemkin and the Hood, as a lieutenant and lt. cmdr., respectively, before joining Enterprise, so his history is more fleshed out. Geordi was on the Victory as a lt. j.g. before we first see him. We also know Data at some point was on the Trieste, but we don't know at what rank and position.
The characters we know very little about regarding their assignments before Enterprise are Worf, Troi, and Dr. Crusher.
Red Ranger
And this cannot have happened two minutes before the Ferengi encounter, because Picard in other episodes refers to having commanded the ship through various adventures.
(Also, FWIW, when Picard has flashbacks to the Ferengi attack, he sees himself with four pips - which he probably wouldn't have had if he had just replaced a fallen captain, as the presence of two Captain-ranked persons aboard would be hard to swallow. Similarly, a forced dream sequence in "Violations" has a four-pipped Picard confront Beverly Crusher next to the body of her husband; it's unlikely Beverly would have fantasized an incorrect rank on Picard.)
However, we still don't know how long Picard commanded the ship. Basically, all his adventures as the ship's CO could have happened within a year of the Ferengi incident where he lost the command.
Timo Saloniemi
(Also, FWIW, when Picard has flashbacks to the Ferengi attack, he sees himself with four pips - which he probably wouldn't have had if he had just replaced a fallen captain, as the presence of two Captain-ranked persons aboard would be hard to swallow. Similarly, a forced dream sequence in "Violations" has a four-pipped Picard confront Beverly Crusher next to the body of her husband; it's unlikely Beverly would have fantasized an incorrect rank on Picard.)
However, we still don't know how long Picard commanded the ship. Basically, all his adventures as the ship's CO could have happened within a year of the Ferengi incident where he lost the command.
Timo Saloniemi
Exactly. The Battle depicts his final acts on the Stargazer. The question I have is, was it ever established on screen just exactly when it was that Jack Crusher was killed? It would hint that it was as a result of the loss of the the Stargazer (eg. Coming of Age), but did they ever etch it in stone?
Not in canon. FWIW, in "Encounter at Farpoint", Wes thinks he remembers when Picard brought dad's body home - so if this is in 2363 or so, and Wes is fifteen, the earliest plausible date for him remembering anything is probably in 2352 or just possibly 2351. At the time of the loss of the ship, he'd be six and could perfectly well remember.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
The memories of those sequences don't have to be perfect. Picard's flashbacks were being influenced by a Ferengi mind control device, and Beverly's memories might have been influenced by Picard as he was in the present day. So any inconsistencies can be attributed to that.
Besides, weren't the old style Monster Maroon (ST II through VI) Starfleet uniforms still in use when the Stargazer was destroyed?
IIRC, it was a variation of those uniforms. I believe they were the same as the crew of the Ent-C. So it would be the jacket but not the turtle neck.
Now that I think about it, I don't recall Picard being in uniform in Beverly's vision.
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The movie tunics were in use when Jack Crusher dictated his first and last holomessage to his yet-to-be-born son - that is, at the end of the 2340s. But when Jack died, he left behind that holomessage in a box that also contained the 2½ pips of a Lieutenant Commander in the modern rank pip style, suggesting that the uniform transition happened before his death.
Beverly's vision did show Picard in full uniform:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s5/5x12/violations199.jpg
Whether that's Picard's real hair from the time is debatable, because it's also the exact hairstyle of Beverly's violator. And whether that thing on Picard's temple is a real medical device (perhaps to indicate that he, too, was physically hurt when Jack died) is another point of debate, as it could echo the scarring of the violator.
Timo Saloniemi
Beverly's vision did show Picard in full uniform:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s5/5x12/violations199.jpg
Whether that's Picard's real hair from the time is debatable, because it's also the exact hairstyle of Beverly's violator. And whether that thing on Picard's temple is a real medical device (perhaps to indicate that he, too, was physically hurt when Jack died) is another point of debate, as it could echo the scarring of the violator.
Timo Saloniemi
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