Physical Strength of the StarTrek races

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by RedShirtnpanties, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. RedShirtnpanties

    RedShirtnpanties Cadet Newbie

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    Could anyone give me an idea or point me to a discussion about the physical strength of the Alien races in StarTrek. Namely Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons, Orion and the Romulans. How they stack up against each other and with humans?

    Oh and WOOT! First post....
     
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  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hey, welcome!

    There are few explicit datapoints, but we do have one species down pat. Vulcans (at least the males in one impromptu sport team of theirs) are stated to have three times the human strength in DS9 "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", and Spock (admittedly an atypical hybrid) throws Kirk around like a ragdoll in TOS "This Side of Paradise" while Romulans do the same to him in the 2009 movie. Vulcan females have not demonstrated much strength, and T'Pol from ENT is a notorious underperformer. Individual variation or sexual dimorphism? No telling yet, really.

    Andorians and humans wrestle each other rather evenly in ENT. An Orion masquerading as an Andorian wrestles with Kirk evenly in TOS "Journey to Babel", and another Orion does so in TAS "Pirates of Orion". Seems these species average out as the same as humans, then, with their trained individuals being a good match for human trained individuals. Although there are certain examples of massive, Shrek-like Orion males in ENT, too, superior in strength to our heroes. But there would always be, in any species.

    Klingons are rather easily wrestled down by just about anybody. The one exception is Kruge from ST3:TSfS, and his strength is supposed to impress his own Klingon crew. The impression we get is that these are fierce warriors whose average muscular strength is slightly inferior to the human average.

    Speaking past averages, Khan Singh is credited with five times Kirk's strength, which may be how all the Augment supermen and -women relate to regular muggles. He and Kirk fight it out much like Spock and Kirk did, with Kirk only winning through the use of superior weapons. Spock and Khan fight more evenly in ST:Into Darkness, in keeping with the 5:1 to 3:1 superstrength ratio.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  3. RedShirtnpanties

    RedShirtnpanties Cadet Newbie

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    Thanks Timo, jeesh, your well read.Here is what I gathered from the net.~
    Khan and his gang/ Female tribble
    Vulcan Male/Andorian Woman
    Romulan
    Human/Orion/Andorian Male/Klingon/ Vulcan woman
    Or possibly Klingon here
    Male Tribble

    The Andorian's seem to be the only outta whack ones on my list, well that and tribbles ;). I drew this from here and a few other sources~

    Romulan~https://wiki.starbase118.net/wiki/index.php?title=Romulan

    Vulcan~3x as strong as average Joe stated everywhere.

    Klingon~ Seems ~to be same as human but a few sources state they are weaker, seems very odd for a warrior race.

    Orion~ Several sources say they rank at human strength.

    [LEFT][SIZE=4][COLOR=rgb(20, 20, 20)]Andorian~ https://wiki.starbase118.net/wiki/index.php?title=Andorian and a few articles I cannot locate right now, also one stated an Andorian woman tossed a human around like a straw in a storm. :([/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT]
     
  4. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would interject, Klingon Protagonist goes above Romulan, and Klingon Antagonist goes well below human.

    Worf only gets beaten down because he always takes on super powerful entities and charges into battle headlong. He does much better when his opponent is not superpowered.

    Klingon protagonists are at least on par with very strong humans. They just rank the worst in opponent selection.
     
  5. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    Oh this topic again. Don't believe the misinformation about Klingons, sure, they're often bested in hand to hand combat, but that is mainly due the main character combat bonus, not because the Klingons are weak. To quote myself from old thread:

    I don't think there is any evidence for Andorians or Orions being any stronger than humans.
     
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  6. XCV330

    XCV330 Commodore Commodore

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    Klingons have consistently been shown to have their ass kicked by humans in hand to hand. Apart from Worf, who is apparently some kind of super-Klingon. Maybe tactically they are superior,since that seems to be the only science they have, everything else being more or less stolen and borrowed technology. Archer stood his own in a strange ulu-icepick weapon fight with Shran, a master of that form of combat which Archer had no experience in. He not only won, he managed to actually injure Shran in the precise way he wanted to. So i am supposing Andorians, while strong may not be as agile. Tellarites and Ferengi, no idea. I can't remember seeing Cardassians having any kind of advantage, either.

    Maybe they are all equal in terms of brain but physically I suspect physically its something like:

    Changelings
    Augmented Humans/Vulcans/Romulans/Nausicaans
    Orions
    Humans
    Klingons/Andorians/Cardassians

    That kind of removes the "Humans are the worst at everything" trope. Interestingly it leaves some of the most warlike races at the bottom.
     
  7. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    My tier list would go like this:

    Changelings, Soong Type Androids
    Borg, Hirogen
    Vulcans, Romulans, Augments, Jem'Hadar
    Klingons, Kelpiens
    Humans and other species without extraordinary strength

    One tier up is not a huge deal. They're somewhat stronger on average, but strong individual from the weaker species may match a weak or even average individual from the stronger species. Two tiers up is a significant difference, and in fight the weaker individual is in great disadvantage. Three or more tiers up is pretty much insurmountable.
     
  8. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Klingons definitely aren't as strong as a Vulcanoid in distress, as seen in TSFS when GenesiSpock threw Kruge's cronies around like rag dolls.

    Kor
     
  9. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    Yep. But Vulcans are not just a little bit stronger than humans, they're crazy strong.
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There might be a difference between ridgeless Klingons of the TOS era (and perhaps surgically altered ones like Kruge), who have human strength, and the Klingons of the TNG era, who were perhaps given a strength boost when they fixed the genome fully after Star Trek VI.

    There are numerous examples where Worf talked about his enhanced strength (that time he killed that kid, how human females are too weak). Are there any examples from the Berman era Klingons that implied they were on par or weaker than humans?

    The whole point of that Enterprise duology was that the Klingons were upset that (augmented) humans had taken down a whole ship earlier in the season and wanted to augment their own DNA to enhance their strength. It worked, but was killing them until Phlox made it do nothing more than flatten out their foreheads.

    Cut to 150 years later, after coming up with failed mutations themselves (DIS :)) and surgical remedies (TMP-TUC), they figure out where they went wrong (post-Khitomer medical exchange?) and accomplish what they wanted to do in the first place. Super-strong Klingons across the Empire with ridges intact.
     
  11. RedShirtnpanties

    RedShirtnpanties Cadet Newbie

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    Wow this is all over the place. So it would be safe to say it's whatever the writer/producer wants it to be.
    One person even put the Andorian's on the bottom??? That was one of the few races other than the Vulcan males where strength was mentioned. How did Orion's get ranking? I haven't found one thread where they are anything but human strength. Ugh! I hate it when writers don't define this stuff. I was hoping there was a clearly defined hierarchy I just couldn't find.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think this is worth focusing on: these comments put an emphasis on Klingon durability, not muscular strength. Head-butting is the wrong way to tackle a Klingon, but a punch in the gut works just fine so even the durability aspect means little in terms of the typical Trek brawl.

    We get this bias from Worf always having his butt kicked in TNG, and then in turn kicking the butt of all other Klingons in TNG and DS9. And from Worf needing a helping hand from Riker or Data when it comes to heavy lifting. But those kicking Worf's butt are superbeings, and Riker providing a boost doesn't mean Riker is stronger than Worf. (Riker does wrestle with an out-of-control Worf a bit in "Where Silence Has Lease", with results quite dissimilar to the Spock-Kirk fight, say.)

    ...Possibly only affordable for Dahar masters, meaning the three old farts from TOS now become top swordsmen who can overpower young brutes with ease?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It is a bit like asking for a hierarchy of strength for Chinamen, Scots, Somali and Colombians for the purposes of sorting out an action movie... Sure, there are differences a biologist could define for us, all in terms of averages and low statistical significance, but still. Should these affect the story of the action flick? The one named "Dutch" wins out in the end anyway.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  14. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    In first contact Worf is strong enough to break a borgs neck with a baseball bat style rifle swing, while the burly human security guards get taken down easily.

    Also in DS9 he wasn't outmatched by any Jem'hadar in hand to hand combat and they are super soldiers.

    But then on other occasions we see Klingons taken out pretty easily by human characters not known for their fighting prowess.

    So it's basically whatever suits the story.

    My order of how it's supposed to be:

    Soong Androids
    Changelings
    Hirogen
    Average Borgs
    Jem'hadar
    Vulcan/Romulan
    Klingon
    Human
    Andorian
    Bajoran
    Ferengi

    Really strong/weak examples of each species could overlap into other groups, like Riker is probably stronger than an average klingon, Reg Barclay is not
     
  15. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    I think there is sufficient evidence for Klingons being somewhat stronger than humans. That someone is physically stronger doesn't mean that they cannot be beaten by weaker opponent (especially if that weaker opponent is a main character in the show!)
     
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  16. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    Is it? Where?
     
  17. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd say that Klingons were stronger than humans but maybe not as clever or agile while the only race I can think of at this time that would be weaker than humans are Talosians but they make up for that with their mental powers!
    JB
     
  18. Ghost Wolf

    Ghost Wolf Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well in watching Voyager a half Klingon (B'Elanna) with a meld induced pon farr defeated Vulcan, Vorik. Seven a (re)humanised ex/part Borg overpowered Tuvok and in another episode defeated a battle weary Hirogen in the ring. (Yet previously both Seven and Tuvok were strung up and very much overpowered by the very first Hirogen we saw). Also in Discovery... Burnham, a Vulcan raised humanoid faced off with big scary Klingon Kol, much to his detriment.

    It makes rating alien strength confusing.
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There we should remember that pon farr made Spock underperform. Not only was he dimwitted, he could be wrestled by Kirk much better than in the utterly uneven fight of "This Side of Paradise".

    Would Torres' pon farr infection have made her equally lose ground? Or would the decrease in performance only affect Vorik and others with true Vulcanoid blood in them?

    It's a shame Worf never got to have a proper fight with the Romulans he so loathed. In "Redemption II", Sela feels confident a single Romulan guard can handle the captive Worf, and this indeed happens. But when Lursa and B'Etor flee, Worf suddenly evenly grapples with the very same guard, despite just having been tortured three ways from Tuesday. We just don't get to see how that fight would end before Kurn barges in.

    I guess we can credit the Borg with things that don't meet the eye, that is, the nanoprobes. But Seven's performance is admittedly uneven. (Perhaps because she's a Borg at heart, and has no objection to losing some first, because triumph is assured in the end?)

    The point still seemed to be that she was losing, and didn't mind because she had no interest in winning.

    Also, not all fights count. Wrestling is a good way to judge respective strength. But punching, kicking, the use of knives and the wielding of guns all involve the concept of "threshold strength", the minimum muscular effort needed to deliver the offense, after which all extra force is wasted. And these forces of attack cannot be countered by application of muscular strength, least of all in proportion to the strength of the attack. Say, kicking doesn't take all that much strength, and a burly amazon will die or be permanently paralyzed from a kick in the jaw just as well as a wimpy Records Officer, their muscular strength contributing not an iota to their defenses.

    Luckily for us, much of Hollywood fighting necessarily involves wrestling. Especially where it counts, such as Sisko vs. Solok, or Kirk vs. Kruge, or Worf vs. Dax.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  20. Herbert

    Herbert Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You just summed up the entire history of Star Trek. There really is little rhyme or reason to it beyond what the story calls for.

    I never got the impression that Klingons as a race were any stronger than humans. The TOS Klingons weren't and even the TNG Klingons don't give that impression much. Sure, Worf seems to be at times (as the story dictates, of course).