PHASE II successful?

[RobertScorpio]

I'm have that wonder PHASE II Star Trek book that delves into that lost chapter of Trek's history. Some of the test footage photos are interesting, especially seeing them use the old uniforms.

I wonder now, looking back at how UPN ultimately failed as a network, if it would have failed the same way, even with PHASE II as the flagship show. True, the compeition was lighter in those days, so it may have done better....

But what about PHASE II? I have read the story treatments in the PHASE II book and most of the plots were, IMO, lacking. Sure, in time, it may have improved. But to me the story formula was still rooted in the 60s. By the time Phase II would have aired ALL IN THE FAMILY--MASH would have already been on. And STAR TREK PHASE II, im my opinion, would have been very 'light'.

I am no of the opinion that was fortunate that PHASE II was grounded. Had it aired, and flopped, as I think it would have, it would have ended Star Trek right there and then.....

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Vance]

Unfortunately, there's more indication that Paramount would have treated "Phase II" with about as much respect and care as a Glen Larson production. It would have its fans, sure, and it would be "Star Trek", but it would get two years and be pretty much assured death after that.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Unfortunately, there's more indication that Paramount would have treated "Phase II" with about as much respect and care as a Glen Larson production. It would have its fans, sure, and it would be "Star Trek", but it would get two years and be pretty much assured death after that.

Yep...what do you think would have been PHASE II's answer to Muffett?

Rob

 

[Vance]

Yep...what do you think would have been PHASE II's answer to Muffett?

I don't know if we would have gotten a Muffet or Twiki out of Phase II, but I imagine that Xon was getting pretty close to being a Boxley. It's not really a stretch, though. I mean, we did wind up getting a Trek version of Boxley later anyway... his name was Wesley.

I also think that the second batch of episodes, at the least, would have introduced more 'model turned actor' cast members (if they wouldn't be there to begin with, like Ilia), which is a trend that started in the late 1970s. Sadly, the use of character actors largely died around then.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Yep...what do you think would have been PHASE II's answer to Muffett?

I don't know if we would have gotten a Muffet or Twiki out of Phase II, but I imagine that Xon was getting pretty close to being a Boxley. It's not really a stretch, though. I mean, we did wind up getting a Trek version of Boxley later anyway... his name was Wesley.

I also think that the second batch of episodes, at the least, would have introduced more 'model turned actor' cast members (if they wouldn't be there to begin with, like Ilia), which is a trend that started in the late 1970s. Sadly, the use of character actors largely died around then.

Which is too bad. A western show from the late 70s. How the West Was Won, was really great with using character actors of the time; cameron mitchell..Richard Kiley...even Shatner....

Rob

 

[Vance]

Which is too bad. A western show from the late 70s. How the West Was Won, was really great with using character actors of the time; cameron mitchell..Richard Kiley...even Shatner....

That's actually why I think that most action-adventure (sci-fi or not) hasn't worked since the 1970s. If you look at Wild Wild West, for instance, there's only a few dogs in that series, but you have amazing character acting, and often not by 'beautiful' people. You would never see someone like Micheal Dunn be cast as a main villain today, which is really sad considering how incredible the Loveless role was.

By the time of Glen Larson, you didn't have many character actors left out there. Shows, like Battlestar Galactica, which desperately could have used strong 'villains / recurring' roles didn't have them. Instead they got the newest 'pin-up' model in nylar outfits to pass as 'actors' for roles that they couldn't begin to approach. (Sadly, in Galactica's case, a lot of the regular cast had that problem too.)

But a decade before, for Star Trek, you could get Ricardo Montelblan who brought a lot more to Khan than his looks. Even though 'modern' Trek has had tons of beautiful people, I can't think of any real character actors that compare. Interestingly, it was Deep Space Nine which came closest, and, oddly, it was with half of the main/recurring cast.

 

[ClayinCA]

I don't know if we would have gotten a Muffet or Twiki out of Phase II, but I imagine that Xon was getting pretty close to being a Boxley. It's not really a stretch, though. I mean, we did wind up getting a Trek version of Boxley later anyway... his name was Wesley.

Well, first of all, it was Boxey, no "L".

Secondly, I don't think Xon was even close to being a Boxey-type character. Sure, he was meant to be younger than the rest of the crew, but not to that extent - he would certainly have been no younger than Chekov was in the original series, and he was far from a "Boxey." If memory serves, the Writer's Guide for Phase II described Xon as being something like "a young Michael York with pointed ears." Hardly a Noah Hathaway type at all.

 

[Vance]

Hardly a Noah Hathaway type at all.

Maybe, but here's the thing. Compare the pilot/movie for BSG and Buck Rodgers (not to mention a lot of other shows, like Knight Rider) to how they turned out once the networks ran them. If Xon was being 'sold' as the 'new audience gateway character', we might have seen him rewritten quite a bit.

Or, barring that, we would have gotten Wesley a full ten years earlier than when we did, added to the crew in a last-minute rewrite. Similar to how NBC wanted Chekov as the 'young gateway character' in TOS, but done with 1970s network 'sensibilities' instead.

 

[Kryton]

BTW Phase II's Xon (David Gautreaux), who played Epsilon 9 Commander Branch in TMP as a consolation prize, appeared in the courtroom against the Shat on this week's episode of "Boston Legal" (Titled "Juiced").

He has a beard these days, so maybe he's more like mirror-universe Xon. We were speculating in the BL thread at TV & Media that it was some sort of Khan-type revenge scheme to keep Kirk off his Alzheimer's meds.

 

[RobertScorpio]

BTW Phase II's Xon (David Gautreaux), who played Epsilon 9 Commander Branch in TMP as a consolation prize, appeared in the courtroom against the Shat on this week's episode of "Boston Legal" (Titled "Juiced").

He has a beard these days, so maybe he's more like mirror-universe Xon. We were speculating in the BL thread at TV & Media that it was some sort of Khan-type revenge scheme to keep Kirk off his Alzheimer's meds.

HA HA HA HA!!!...I didn't even recognize him..and I like your theory about decoying Denny off of his alsheimers...BTW...does he live or die in the last episode..what's your gut telling you???

Rob

 

[Captain Robert April]

If Paramount hadn't made such a big deal about their upcoming new network, they wouldn't have painted themselves into a corner regarding Phase II. NBC would've been first in line with bells on to get a new Star Trek series, to redeem what has become known as the most short-sighted decision in television history, i.e., canceling Star Trek.

But after all the crowing, followed by the whole thing unraveling, there was no way they could turn around and try and shop the show to one of the other three networks and get anything resembling a good deal.

Now, take the whole "flagship show of new network" part out of the equation, and it's a whole new ballgame, and a having as executive producer a Gene Roddenberry who was still in command of his mental faculties and not yet fully believing his own hype could very well have produced a helluva a show that might've had a pretty good run.

Of course, that also would've meant no movies, no spinoff shows, or at least not the ones we know today, a much more content and complacent fanbase, and probably a lot fewer conventions.

Remove one thread, and the whole tapestry starts to unravel....

 

[RobertScorpio]

If Paramount hadn't made such a big deal about their upcoming new network, they wouldn't have painted themselves into a corner regarding Phase II. NBC would've been first in line with bells on to get a new Star Trek series, to redeem what has become known as the most short-sighted decision in television history, i.e., canceling Star Trek.

But after all the crowing, followed by the whole thing unraveling, there was no way they could turn around and try and shop the show to one of the other three networks and get anything resembling a good deal.

Now, take the whole "flagship show of new network" part out of the equation, and it's a whole new ballgame, and a having as executive producer a Gene Roddenberry who was still in command of his mental faculties and not yet fully believing his own hype could very well have produced a helluva a show that might've had a pretty good run.

Of course, that also would've meant no movies, no spinoff shows, or at least not the ones we know today, a much more content and complacent fanbase, and probably a lot fewer conventions.

Remove one thread, and the whole tapestry starts to unravel....

Yep...and I am not sold on the fact that PHASE 2 would have been good...Gene still seemed to be rooted in 60s story telling, and you could really see this in TNGs first season. TNG is really PHASE 2 updated, we all know that.

Fate was on our side on this one. Had Phase Two gone forward, IMO, TREK would have died....for good.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Herbert1]

William Shatner was only signed for the first 13 episodes and that since he was deemed as too expensive was expected to appear periodically as a guest in later episodes.

Would whomever they cast as Willard Decker have been charismatic enough to hold the television series together?

Since she was in the makeup tests, I would presume that Persis Khambatta would have been Ilia in the series. Would fans have liked the new character?

I really can't tell about the character Xon from the few seconds of Gautreaux's screen test. Would fans have missed Nimoy as Spock?

In the late 1970s there was enough demand for new Star Trek that I believe that fans would have watched for a little while.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Gene still seemed to be rooted in 60s story telling, and you could really see this in TNGs first season.

Gene Roddenberry was a very sick and angry old man by 1986, as was demonstrated by his permitting David Gerrold and D.C. Fontana (two of TOS' lesser scribes, AFAIAC) to write the ST:TNG Bible along with giving his attorney Leonard Maizlish authority to rewrite many of the first season's teleplays in his name. As for Phase II being "rooted in 60s story telling", the PII Bible made it clear that GR was aiming for a more naturalistic dialogue structure, to whit:

"Television has become much more sophisticated in other ways. Older, ponderous dialogue patterns have given way (thank you M.A.S.H) to more realism through the use of more fragmented sentences, overlaps and interruptions. Better camera techniques, new film emulsions and exciting new optical and tape effects all make increased realism possible."

TNG is really PHASE 2 updated, we all know that.

What unadulterated rubbish, which isn't at all surprising considering the source. Phase II had scripts and treatments from writers on the order of Theodore Sturgeon, Norman Spinrad, Jerome Bixby and Richard Bach, along with TOS contributors Shimon Wincelberg and John Meredyth Lucas. ST:TNG had no comparable literary foundation.

Fate was on our side on this one.

Fuck you, spambot. Do not presume to speak for me, on this or any other subject.

Had Phase Two gone forward, IMO, TREK would have died....for good.

I would happily trade in everything that was produced since 1982 - and everything that will be churned out by CBS in the future - for just one season of Phase II, preferably produced after ST:TMP so GR could have reused the film's photographic miniatures, sets, props, costumes and visual/sound effects for the show.

TGT

An infraction has been issued for this post - Mallory

 

[Therin of Andor]

but I imagine that Xon was getting pretty close to being a Boxley.

Boxey.

Actually, the character of Xon was described as "a Michael York type with pointed ears". David Gautreaux (Epsilon 9's Commander "Branch") studied meditation for months, preparing to play Xon. I think its more likely he'd have been a very intense, very serious Data type, not a child prodigy like Boxey, Wesley or Naomi.

 

[Vance]

Actually, the character of Xon was described as "a Michael York type with pointed ears". David Gautreaux (Epsilon 9's Commander "Branch") studied meditation for months, preparing to play Xon. I think its more likely he'd have been a very intense, very serious Data type, not a child prodigy like Boxey, Wesley or Naomi.

Like I said, hard to say, depending on how the network would want things done after the pilot. I can easily see some character in the series being turned into the prodigy, as it was 'the rage' back in the 1970s. (Hence the parody character in Galaxy Quest.)

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Finances are everything. Paramount pulled the plug on this because it was on track to be a failure - not enough station clearances, no expectation that such an expensive project would bring in the revenues necessary to justify its production.

Look up and read the things that Mel Harris, then President of the Paramount Television Group, said about the business end of getting TNG on the air - they weren't willing to commit to it until sufficient deals were in place to guarantee that the studio wouldn't take a bath if the show only ran for one year (according to reports in industry news outlets like Variety, the studio invested at least 36 million dollars in the first year of TNG). The successful sale of television rights in several foreign markets were what eventually made the show feasible.

 

[Stag]

I would happily trade in everything that was produced since 1982 - and everything that will be churned out by CBS in the future - for just one season of Phase II, preferably produced after ST:TMP so GR could have reused the film's photographic miniatures, sets, props, costumes and visual/sound effects for the show.

TGT

I agree 100% - my only fear would have been if it was produced prior to TMP, that due to budget constraints we would see half hearted attempts at quality sfx. Meaning some essentially good shots reused over and over and over again as stock footage ala TOS Galactica.

I think the framework or foundation for Phase II was strong and the story telling would have far outweighed what we got with later TREK TV and more in the spirit of TOS TREK. Would have there been klunkers...I'm sure. Some people point to the season 1 TNG scripts that were re-writes of Phase 2 scripts as being examples of weak scripts. I disagree...they may have been weak because they were not written for that cast nor for the more 'diplomatic' approach that show took. However, the underlying concept or theme was classic TREK and one could well imagine Jim Kirk and the rest pulling the story off far more entertainingly.

 

[Stag]

Finances are everything. Paramount pulled the plug on this because it was on track to be a failure - not enough station clearances, no expectation that such an expensive project would bring in the revenues necessary to justify its production.

You know that is true, think of the economy now, back in the late 70s it was as bad or worse with interest rates in the high teens for any kind of loans. I remember my brotherbought a house and got 21% rate on his mortgage and thought he did great ---

TREK back then was not the hot commodity we perceive it to be now or what it was in the mid to late 90s. It was all speculative at that point. Would they garner a broad audience or just a few geeks with glue on pointed ears?

 

[Mysterion]

Some people point to the season 1 TNG scripts that were re-writes of Phase 2 scripts as being examples of weak scripts. I disagree...they may have been weak because they were not written for that cast nor for the more 'diplomatic' approach that show took. However, the underlying concept or theme was classic TREK and one could well imagine Jim Kirk and the rest pulling the story off far more entertainingly.

AFAIK, the only two Phase II stories that made it to TNG intact were The Child and Devil's Due both in Season 2. I can easily see both with the TOS/Phase II cast, but they also worked pretty well as TNG stories. I think The Child benefitted from having Pulaski on deck rather than Crusher.

The one Phase II script I would love to see adapted as either a feature (or a novel for that matter) is Kitumba. Woulda been a great klingon story for the time when we still didn;t know a whole lot about the klingons.