Operation Return - Casualties seemed too significant

[AdmiralBruno]

In the big battle in 'Sacrifice of Angels'.... they later say the fleet will be up to full operational capacity in under a year. Weren't quite a few Federation ships destroyed? Less than a year seems a short period of time to replace so many ships. I don't know how many were lost but it had to be quite a few?

 

[ialfan]

I think you're mixing up 'The Best of Both Worlds' with SoA. Shelby made that comment about the 39 ships destroyed then. I'd guess Starfleet would be feeling the effects of the Dominion War for years to come.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In the big battle in 'Sacrifice of Angels'.... they later say the fleet will be up to full operational capacity in under a year. Weren't quite a few Federation ships destroyed? Less than a year seems a short period of time to replace so many ships. I don't know how many were lost but it had to be quite a few?

They didn't lose any Sovereigns ... they didn't deploy them to the major battles!

 

[AdmiralBruno]

I think you're mixing up 'The Best of Both Worlds' with SoA. Shelby made that comment about the 39 ships destroyed then. I'd guess Starfleet would be feeling the effects of the Dominion War for years to come.

I don't think so... It definitely was DS9... this comment was made to Sisko. I only re-watched DS9 a few years ago. I wouldn't have forgotten so soon.

 

[Tenacity]

The battle in SOA was only one of many during the course of the Dominion War, Starfleet (iirc) was losing ships by the hundreds (thousands?). It probably took Starfleet considerable time to build up it's pre-war numbers, some of it's front line starships were based on a design that was a century old.

 

[USS Firefly]

I don't think so... It definitely was DS9... this comment was made to Sisko. I only re-watched DS9 a few years ago. I wouldn't have forgotten so soon.

ialfan Is correct, It was Shelby who said It in BOBW

 

[AdmiralBruno]

ialfan Is correct, It was Shelby who said It in BOBW

I DECLARE A NERD WAR! #IDemandProof

 

[DS9forever]

Sisko made reference to First Contact in By Inferno's Light but that was before the war.

 

[USS Firefly]

I DECLARE A NERD WAR! #IDemandProof

What do you mean you want proof?
I said It, so that's all the proof you need.

 

[USS KG5]

In the big battle in 'Sacrifice of Angels'.... they later say the fleet will be up to full operational capacity in under a year. Weren't quite a few Federation ships destroyed? Less than a year seems a short period of time to replace so many ships. I don't know how many were lost but it had to be quite a few?

Naah - as others have said you have got your series in a twist. DS9 was deliberately vague about fleet sizes just like the other shows, however. Starfleet probably lost about 200 starships during Operation Return, easily built in a year in any case or they would have lost the war.

The most solid figure on overall fleet size is the estimate that the available 1500 Klingon ships in the last few eps of DS9 are outnumbered 20 to 1 by the Dominion fleet, Cardassian, Breen, Jem H'Adar.

Presumably to engage them, the combined Federation, Klingon and Romulan fleets must be that same approximate size. The Federation seem to be the leading partner, and the Klingons can only spare about 1500 ships (maybe 25-30% of their entire fleet) so you have to assume Starfleet has approximately 15,000 ships to deploy.

That is, however, all ships, everywhere. The Federation seems to be vast and large chunks of it not involved in the war would need to be defended. Also there would be garrison ships, convoy escorts and ships not at all suited for combat from choice. They would also, at least at the start of the war, be all over the place, some years away.

This is how you get the situation of Starfleet in TNG using fleets of dozens whereas suddenly they have hundreds in DS9.

In peacetime, Starfleet needs far fewer ships, so presumably very many spend a lot of time in mothballs, hence the sudden huge number of disposal Mirandas, Excelsiors and kitbashes during the Dominion War.

 

[Timo]

Starfleet probably lost about 200 starships during Operation Return, easily built in a year in any case or they would have lost the war.

...It's funny that we never saw a ship that looked like she could have been built during the war! Apart from the Sao Paulo, that is.

On the other hand, if Starfleet could replenish its ship losses during the war, how come the Dominion is winning? They are the newcomers, without a preexisting industrial base, and Starfleet has been destroying their shipyards left and right since Day One.

In peacetime, Starfleet needs far fewer ships

Now does it? It's engaged in combat against acts of gods and forces of nature every day, be it peace or war. There's a constant shortage of ships in all the supposed peacetime episodes, with colonies in trouble and civilian lives lost because Starfleet didn't have a ship to spare. Keeping ships in mothballs would seem like high treason in the circumstances...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

without a preexisting industrial base

No, they had the pre-existing Cardassian industrial infrastructure, and presumably, they sent constant men and supplies up until the mining of the wormhole.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Naah - as others have said you have got your series in a twist. DS9 was deliberately vague about fleet sizes just like the other shows, however. Starfleet probably lost about 200 starships during Operation Return, easily built in a year in any case or they would have lost the war.

The most solid figure on overall fleet size is the estimate that the available 1500 Klingon ships in the last few eps of DS9 are outnumbered 20 to 1 by the Dominion fleet, Cardassian, Breen, Jem H'Adar.

Presumably to engage them, the combined Federation, Klingon and Romulan fleets must be that same approximate size. The Federation seem to be the leading partner, and the Klingons can only spare about 1500 ships (maybe 25-30% of their entire fleet) so you have to assume Starfleet has approximately 15,000 ships to deploy.

That is, however, all ships, everywhere. The Federation seems to be vast and large chunks of it not involved in the war would need to be defended. Also there would be garrison ships, convoy escorts and ships not at all suited for combat from choice. They would also, at least at the start of the war, be all over the place, some years away.

This is how you get the situation of Starfleet in TNG using fleets of dozens whereas suddenly they have hundreds in DS9.

In peacetime, Starfleet needs far fewer ships, so presumably very many spend a lot of time in mothballs, hence the sudden huge number of disposal Mirandas, Excelsiors and kitbashes during the Dominion War.

That's a starting point, but it's still very reductionist. The actual calculations would necessarily be a lot more complicated. For instance, we see on a regular basis that Starfleet starships are typically larger and more powerful than other races. It's quite common to see one big Federation ship fighting three smaller enemy ships. And, of course, there are situations such as Way of the Warrior, where Gowron backed down in the face of reinforcement by a few dozen Fed ships.

I'm not sure how much was confirmed onscreen, but my impression of the Romulan fleet was that even it was more dependent on fewer, larger, more powerful ships.

Meanwhile, the Dominion seemed to go for quantity over quality. Lots of small, easy to build attack ships operating in groups.

...It's funny that we never saw a ship that looked like she could have been built during the war! Apart from the Sao Paulo, that is.

On the other hand, if Starfleet could replenish its ship losses during the war, how come the Dominion is winning? They are the newcomers, without a preexisting industrial base, and Starfleet has been destroying their shipyards left and right since Day One.

Dominion ship yards are notoriously efficient and Dominion ships are relatively small and probably easy to build. There system is designed from the ground up to outpace enemy construction (because they can always clone more soldiers to replace losses in a way that most enemies can't).

 

[USS KG5]

...It's funny that we never saw a ship that looked like she could have been built during the war! Apart from the Sao Paulo, that is.

Well the Sao Paulo is certainly one, and logically Starfleet is still building some of the ship classes, the Akiras for example, and heck, why not new Galaxy class ships, like the DS9 TM says, whack them out without science labs as giant damage soaking monsters. I've never subscribed to the idea an organisation with resources as vast as the Federation would go, "heck, those Galaxy class ships are a tad pricey, lets stop building them.."

On the other hand, if Starfleet could replenish its ship losses during the war, how come the Dominion is winning? They are the newcomers, without a preexisting industrial base, and Starfleet has been destroying their shipyards left and right since Day One.

Well, even the show explains that, they Dominion are experts at whacking out ships and soldiers left right and centre. They also seem to possess a sometimes worrying technical advantage to Starfleet. Besides, the Dominion are only shown as clearly winning in the three off-screen months before season six and after the fall of Betazed. Costly stalemate seems the order of the day, with some significant periods of cease fires.

Now does it? It's engaged in combat against acts of gods and forces of nature every day, be it peace or war. There's a constant shortage of ships in all the supposed peacetime episodes, with colonies in trouble and civilian lives lost because Starfleet didn't have a ship to spare. Keeping ships in mothballs would seem like high treason in the circumstances...

I'd honestly say that aint the ships, its the crews. The only reason our heroes aren't toast every damn week is their exceptional ability. While some of the shows seemed to at least attempt to show an average crew, they all slipped into being supermen almost right away, literally in Bashir's case! Second in his class... on purpose!

Starfleet can whack fifty people with phasers and a big sticker saying "press to shoot" on an old Miranda to make up the numbers in a war, but they'd send a proper ship in peace time, different paradigm altogether.

That's a starting point, but it's still very reductionist. The actual calculations would necessarily be a lot more complicated. For instance, we see on a regular basis that Starfleet starships are typically larger and more powerful than other races. It's quite common to see one big Federation ship fighting three smaller enemy ships. And, of course, there are situations such as Way of the Warrior, where Gowron backed down in the face of reinforcement by a few dozen Fed ships...I'm not sure how much was confirmed onscreen, but my impression of the Romulan fleet was that even it was more dependent on fewer, larger, more powerful ships.

Agreed.

 

[UnknownSample]

Starfleet would not be doing anything quite as primitive as "building" ships, anyway, or at least not one by one. They depend on little replicators, so why not enormous, industrial replicators to turn out entire ships, or at least large portions of them, which would then be joined into ships? I would guess that each individual replication would take considerably more time than it takes, say, to turn out a cup of coffee, but it would save so much time compared to actual shipbuilding in the old sense that a year to rebuild the fleet would be seen as a LONG time, relatively. That's a lot of damage, if recovery takes a whole year, even with replicated ships. I'd bet the Dominion could outdo the Federation in this area too, though.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Starfleet would not be doing anything quite as primitive as "building" ships, anyway, or at least not one by one. They depend on little replicators, so why not enormous, industrial replicators to turn out entire ships, or at least large portions of them, which would then be joined into ships? I would guess that each individual replication would take considerably more time than it takes, say, to turn out a cup of coffee, but it would save so much time compared to actual shipbuilding in the old sense that a year to rebuild the fleet would be seen as a LONG time, relatively. That's a lot of damage, if recovery takes a whole year, even with replicated ships. I'd bet the Dominion could outdo the Federation in this area too, though.

The Federation's problem with attrition would never be with ships, anyway, it would be with crews. No matter how fast you can build a fleet, humans (and seemingly most other humanoids) still take a good 15 years (at least) to mature and at least a few more years to train to a reasonable standard of spaceworthiness. And while there are definitely lots of civilians running around that could theoretically join up, it's perhaps somewhat questionable how many of them would, considering how cushy life in the Federation has been for apparently multiple generations.

 

[Timo]

No, they had the pre-existing Cardassian industrial infrastructure, and presumably, they sent constant men and supplies up until the mining of the wormhole.

But the Cardassians were supposed to be the pitiful local underdogs, incapable of standing up to the Federation. Modifying their industry to serve a more potent military would probably require massive effort. And the supplies only kept flowing for about half a year at most - can you really erect an industry in that time that would outproduce the combined industries of dozens of local cultures with millennia of history?

Evidently, you can, if you're the Dominion. Which bodes ill for the Alpha cultures when the Dominion returns with something more than just this minimal beachhead force that can topple quadrants...

logically Starfleet is still building some of the ship classes, the Akiras for example

Why Akiras? We never see any under construction - even the prewar flashback scenes from VOY "Relativity" only show an Akira or two with remarkably low registries, thus more probably undergoing maintenance than construction.

No doubt Akiras and other semi-modern types would still be in production. It's just that we never see any that would have registry numbers higher than those of famed prewar ships such as Voyager or Defiant. We can always pretend that those ships with unseen registry numbers are modern ones, of course...

That crews would be the bottleneck is certainly a good excuse in peacetime, where quality would count. In wartime... The UFP has trillions of citizens - surely a meager million borderline insane ones could be found who would volunteer to crew ten thousand starships?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[UnknownSample]

Hey, after Riker's duplication by the transporter, they could get the transporter information for the best soldiers in Star Fleet, and replicate each one by the hundreds! A whole ship manned by supremely competent Rikers. How about that?! All with the same chip on their shoulders as Tom... The USS Riker commanded by Captain Riker and his crew of Rikers, all of whom KNOW for a fact that they could do just as good a job as the Captain......

 

[Timo]

When the defense of Data in "Measure of a Man" facetiously postulated that the mass production of an android army was the motivation behind the prosecution's case, this apparently had the desired effect of appalling the judge. Perhaps the Feds don't want cloned armies for the same reason they don't want individual clones of themselves (and consider it okay to murder any such clones at sight)?

That aside, the spectacular self-destruction of a thousand ships crewed by fiercely independent Rikers would be a sight to impress the mightiest of enemies.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[UnknownSample]

That aside, the spectacular self-destruction of a thousand ships crewed by fiercely independent Rikers would be a sight to impress the mightiest of enemies.

Timo Saloniemi

Chuckle. Maybe that was the ship that blew up in "Parallels"!