Okay, get ready to throw Tomatoes but I liked "Endgame".

[DonIago]

I don't think I would have been any more kindly disposed towards the situation if Kirk or Picard or Sisko or Archer had done the same thing. Heck, as-is I already think at least one of Sisko's actions was perilously borderline, and Archer actually crossed the border at least once - he's not my favorite captain, but I also acknowledge that I can't fully appreciate what he went through.

For the record, I wouldn't say that what Sisko or Archer did was necessarily more or less worthy of condemnation. Granted it's easy to say from the side-lines, but I don't think, ideally (yeah, I said it) that SF captains should be acting in ways where their morality is even brought into question.

I'm not willing to give Janeway (or the writers) a pass just because the episode was the show's finale either, especially when there's such a relatively easy fix, making the original future timeline look less well-off. If we -are- supposed to cheer for Janeway's actions, I think this was pretty botched writing.

Actually, I'd like to think that leaving us debating the morality of Janeway's actions was one of the writers' intentions, but I don't have any information on that point either way.

 

[exodus]

Actually, I'd like to think that leaving us debating the morality of Janeway's actions was one of the writers' intentions, but I don't have any information on that point either way.

I'm not sure why not.
Trying to keep her morals in check while getting thru the DQ was one of the main themes of the character.

Granted it's easy to say from the side-lines, but I don't think, ideally (yeah, I said it) that SF captains should be acting in ways where their morality is even brought into question.

While that's your opinion, I'm not sure why considering the point of traveling the "wilderness" of space is supposed to test, challenge and at times even question their morality.

 

[DonIago]

(shrugs) Were we ever given a real reason to question Picard's morality? I don't remember any particularly trying episodes in that regard. Mostly the same for Kirk, though my TOS knowledge is a bit sketchy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

He let Wesley live in violation of the Prime directive which insisted he obeyed the laws of other cultures. Told some savages that they didn't have the strength of arms to back up their legal authority to cut the kids head off because he had a big star ship.

Of course they did have the strength to force him into doing anything they wanted and the dude ended up "begging" to be allowed to break his own law and the law of the Edo.

but that was a clever moral conflict he was supposed to struggle with, and not Jean Luc being anything like an Imperialist or an ass.

 

[Vinkula]

I really like the Endgame aswell, my 2nd favourite episode of the series and a great final, I think. I love the Admiral and the future uniforms etc. Absolutely fantastic episode(s).

 

[Guy Gardener]

it was the same uniforms used in TNG and DS9.

When Mulgrew got her uniform/costume form wardrobe it probably still smelt like McFadden... Gates is just from an era when women wore a lot of perfume.

 

[kipron]

Posted by Guy:
She succumbs to that grief to the point where she refuses to live in a life where she has to live with the choices she made and then kills herself to make sure she can undo them.

She overcomes her grief to the point where she gives up a safe, certain outcome for something which is risky, but worthwhile.

YMMV, but thanks for playing!

Define worth while?

And define risky?

Admiral Janeway is an idiot.

Her great plan was kneecapped by her youngerselfs need for glory( it wasn't a nearly almost operational game changing Death star, this transit System had been up and running for decades if not hundreds of years AND THERE WAS SIX OF THEM!.) and she hardly brang all the toys and tools she needed to fight borg 40 years her junior ( I watched the Final Countdown yesterday. A USS Aircraft Carrier from 1980 sails through a time window to December 6th 1941 and they have to decide if they're going to engage the Japanese fleet before it attacks Pearl Harbour... It's exactly the same shit except with backbone.) Which should have been a piece of cake if she wanted to go about a mission with zero risk. There's nothing that happened by Admiral Janeways capture that wouldn't happen any time that Icheb was captured and the Doctor was an idiot is every one wasn't carrying his virus (so that suddenly the Borg and the federation are hammering out protected planet treaties where they only inoculate portions of the galaxy against the Borg in Return the Borg don't destroy all the inoculated planets. Well isn't that just a little bit Stargate season two and three?).

But Admiral Janeway chose a shitty plan instead of a good plan, two shitty plans really, instead of a good plan out of the gate her Youngerself couldn't find fault with because she's an idiot or that she wanted to die. Janeway is only an idiot emotionally. Or course there's the third option that Admiral Janeway is a Genius who offered a shitty plan on purpose because she knew everything would go much smother if the child version of herself thought that it was in charge and mistressing how the ducks were being lined up to attack the hub and Unimatrix 001. Why would Captain Janeway resist Captain Janeways plan(yes I meant to say that.)?

When the Admiral said that she knew it was going to be a one way mission it's kinda obvious that she never intended on going back and she couldn't stay and if she travelled home, great shades of Back to the Future, IT WOULDN'T EXIST... There'd be either another Admiral Janeway waiting for this Admiral Janeway in the future who is a different person telling this (lost and presumptuous)Admiral not to steal her life, her family and her shit (Tom Riker murdered a Clon... I mean Will Riker murdered his clone because ( I quote) the universe is only big enough for one Tom R.. I mean "Will Rikers". These women however, they'd frakking kill each other for their tennis trophies and winner gets to delete Marks wife since whacking that "bitch" (she stole her man, the language is accurate and in context. Haven't you listened to any Modern Country Music?) is going to be piss easy after filleting her doppelgänger for spare parts (for in case of emergency) after 12 rounds of foxey boxing with those broken shard glass boxing gloves... )or a smoking crater in space where the federation used to be... I can't believe I never asked this before but how can she go home if she is rewriting the time line, especially since Miral already tested the time travel device with a trip possibly of her own to make sure the bastard worked (which she said that it did.) that she didn't return to a mildly different universe already that she couldn't live with the guilt of erasing everyone she knew that she elected to allow mad old Janeway to exterminate her and the timeline she was standing on to put her own self out of her misery... Though why did Harry think that he was going to be demoted if the timeline was going to be destroyed out from under him as Janeway leaped back in time to put wrong which once went right?

Besides Korath had been playing with time for how long and he had failed so badly at trying to make the future perfect, exactly how stupid was he to think that even a sane federation officer wouldn't undo everything he had done to time to make him cool and the Klingons on top because unlike Annorax, maybe korath knew when to give up, but maybe he wasn't giving up playing with time more so than deciding that he would ride on Janeways shooting (craps metaphor? The Dude spent a decade hanging out in Las Vegas.) which means that he would have had temporal shields and the universe would change around him as Janeway changed the past if he wasn't a fool, and besides he only gave her one opportunity to see if she could make his universe better by chance than he could by design, and since he was shielded, Korath could have easily undone the Admirals alterations to the timeline without too much effort if he wasn't fond of her accomplishments... (How much of the Federation has temporal Shileds? How large a fleet does the Federation have standing outside of time looming for in case that some bastard doesn't try to destroy earth before the Voth left? It's altogether possibly that time and space is constantly changing around the 25th century Federation fleet and their key planets which are still inside time.)

Um.

My point?

She didn't over come her grief.

Sounds like she's not the only one!

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's like every star trek finale (TOS didn't have one twice so that didn't count.) is worse than the last. Every star trek finale I have watched is the worst star trek finale I have ever seen.

Office Space anyone?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I really like the Endgame aswell, my 2nd favourite episode of the series and a great final, I think. I love the Admiral and the future uniforms etc. Absolutely fantastic episode(s).

I thought the uniforms (reused from "All Good Things", iirc) were the most horrible ones ever. Shapeless, fugly PJ's that made the TMP outfits look good.

It's funny that the USS Kelvin uniforms in STXI are almost the same, yet Robau, George and friends' big-budget and properly fitted versions look amazing. Very heroic.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They were used in the DS9 the Visitor as well.

As far as memorabilia goes, it's quite amazing to think about owning some history which three (trek) A-leis Actress's have worn... Farrel must have stretched the shit out of that costume between Gates and Kate.

 

[J.Ashmore]

As far as memorabilia goes, it's quite amazing to think about owning some history which three (trek) A-leis Actress's have worn... Farrel must have stretched the shit out of that costume between Gates and Kate.

What uniform would that be that was 'shared' between the three?

I liked Endgame, mostly because it had Alice Krieg (sp?) in it and I love, love, looovvee her as the Borg Queen. I love the Borg, they're my favorite 'bad-guy' from Trek. I also liked how Admiral Janeway came back.

I understood her feelings of why she wanted to go back and change the outcome of Voyager.

From how I understand it, she went back to that point in time because it was an opportunity that she originally looked over (Captain Janeway deciding not to mess around with the Borg so she continued on their original course home.) But a lot of people have asked: why not just stop herself from destroying the Caretaker Array? (It's been talked about a lot how they could have used a time-explosive device to go off once they used the technology to go back to the AQ and yadda yadda yadda.)

To answer that question with my own opinion (yes, opinion!), I think she didn't go back because the 'family' that developed wouldn't have been there if she went all the way to the beginning. Sure, Kes and Neelix didn't stay with them and some crew had died, but they were still a part of the family. She knew that the hardships of those seven years were special for all of them and changed all of them for the better, made them better people and better officers and she did not want to ruin that for them all. Like a lot of the characters said through out the show "I almost don't want to make it back.." That just shows how much they all loved each other and how close they all became. Voyager was their home.

So, I understand why she didn't go all the way back, and am happy she didn't. Some call it selfishness, and I will not deny an orange is an orange, but I also think it was the better thing to do.

Also, a lot of people said they didn't like the episode because it was too easy to defeat the Borg. Well, they didn't 'defeat' the Borg, they just destroyed the space-hub, conduit, and Queen. There are Borg spread through out the DQ and other parts of space, in no way did they 'defeat' the Borg. When a Queen is gone, they don't die. And the sacrifice of Admiral Janeway must not have been easy, I'm sure she wanted to see her crew all alive and home just as badly, but realized it really wasn't her crew. And the 'virus' thing (forgive me, I can't remember what it really was..) must have taken a long time to develop.

I wasn't intending on this being a huge post because I always find it hard to explain why I like an episode vs. others not liking it, but I did enjoy it, even if I was a little upset we didn't get to see any reunions.. but that's what books and fanfiction are for.

P.S. I loved the interaction of Ad. Janeway and Tuvok, and how, even though he was losing his mind, he knew that something was wrong when she left and knew he wouldn't see her again. It made me tear up.. a lot. Great acting on their part.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As far as the costumes go, maybe the recycling wasn't so direct that all the leading womens DNA isn't caught up in a single gusset, but there's less than ten of them and they were used in one episode of TNG, DS9 and Voy... There's only so many permutations when you consider boobs and hips that boys are girls can't so easily call this ware unisex.

red letter events as to why Janeway would chose that moment in descending order of importance...

10. Joe Carey, thank Allah, was finally dead.

09. Seven and Chuckles finally hooked up and this time she could destroy it by making it try to come about too early and uncomfortably.

08. Miral Paris was born and this time she was going to be brought up and raised on Earth where she could fall in love with a boy her own age after she begins puberty at 5 years old (Klingon remember) instead of hooking up with Kim. In his defence, by the time Miral was 7, she was taller, more mature and smarter than he was.

07. Neelix got to live happily ever after. If the admiral had brought him to Earth before his fairytale ending the little rodent would never have stopped pinning after her like a puppy bog looking to bury his bone. Good riddance.

06. Chells cooking. The Admiral BENT the universe in on over itself to save her intestinal tract from Chells cooking.

05. Tuvoks medical disorder. She's not a complete dick.

04. The Borg secret passage. Big woop. They had access to a Borg Sphere at the beginning of the season and ignored that they could have borrowed it for a weekwhich had access ot the Borgs transwarp network before it was used uselessly to thrash futilely against Borg Pre-eminence. Borg technology just doesn't give this crew a boner enough to risk using it mostly.

03. The Equinox 5. Considering how low they are on the totem, one or more of them was going to be dead or go AWOL by the time the Admiral got home, that these bastards never got to stand trial for their crimes against common decency. Admiral Janeway said that 22 more people died including Seven before she got back to the AQ, what if that number was really 17 of her real crew and the Equinox 5 she just keeps around for slave labour?

02. Exactly how was Admiral Janeway involved with those corruption charges the newscaster in the teaser was talking about?

01. It didn't matter where she went because she was only creating alternate timelines which manifested her concept of a more desirable present in the past and her own home ABANDONED "future-now" was untouched where her friends had been DESERTED and really, if she didn't like how things were shaping out in some past she was tampering with, the Admiral could just call for a Mulligan and rebegin her scam all over again for the first time a few months earlier and we don't know that she didn't that this wasn't the 30th or the 300th time she had tried to Annorax time, each time she cocked it up, voyagering back a few weeks further into the recess of her better days... Miral tested the device, if it wasn't safe or usable, which is the condition it was in when our story picked up, how many times was it used? Though I suppose Captain Harry said it was broke down before she left 2404. Well, it's at least a possibility?

 

[The Borg Queen]

The biggest plot-driven stupidity of this episode is Admiral Kathy turning up 3 days AFTER they encounter the Borg's Transwarp Hub, and not before.

If she'd turned up 3 days BEFORE they got there, with her superduper Cloaking device, shielding and torpedoes, they could have just sailed right on through without the Borg even knowing they were there.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What's the admiral going to say?

"Kathy, you wussed out. You're a wussie. Don't be that woman, grow some balls!"

The Admiral needed to prove that the Captain was a wussy or the Captain would have never have admitted that she didn't have the steel to engage the hub when it all suddenly became effortless that she'd pishaw the matter claiming that it would be just as easy without future toys.

 

[exodus]

What cloaking device?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Refractive shielding used in Counterpoint and/the invisible bullshit Magnus Hansen invented the Borg didn't bother to guard against because the borg protect themselves from civilizations not individuals. Imagine the processing power needed for EVERY drone to constantly be monitoring every wave length. They wait fr a few drones to be killed by invisible enemies before they check in to see if they already have counter measures or they have to invent some.

Who said cloaking device?

OH.

exactly!

No the Admiral was able to hide in plain sight, The Queen had a devil of a time finding her shuttle, and she used the transwarp network... There wasn't a cloak?

But if she had of brought a cloak instead of weapons, if the Admiral was bright, the Borg wouldn't have known dick about all their tresspassing and rambling through Borgspace... How long do you think it would have taken the borg to deal with a self replicating cloaked minefield laid inside the Hub?

It's just a question of tools.

The right tools for the job.

Admiral Janeway was trying to hammer in a nail with a screw driver.

Remember the first time you watched MacGyver?

He sealed up a melting down reactor with icecreamblocks he found on the way... Or were they fudgcicles?

But Harry and Seven already knew EVERYTHING about Cloaking devices since it's the federations job to smash cloaks, which they can't do without understanding them entirely even if they are legally bound to not use them because of their treaty with the Romulans.

The usual.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VFYgfwFbqo

3:56 shows the Flyer decloaking off the Queen's Unimatrix home. I couldn't find where in the transcript it says it "couldn't" be used on Voyager, but my aging memory thought there was a blurb somewhere that suggested it couldn't.