New to B5 (a couple of questions on Vorlons)

[Verteron]

Hi folks,

It's been a while since I've been seen here, I guess. But during the long wait for BSG S4.5, I've decided to persue another arc-based story-heavy real-physics sci-fi series I almost totally missed out on in the nineties... namely, B5.

So far I've watched S1 and S2, and it's reasonably compelling so far. It doesn't seem nearly as "in your face" as some of the other series I've watched, but it certainly leaves one wanting more!

Last night, I got my hands on "The Gathering" (which I suppose I should've watched before I started), but it's left me a bit confused about Vorlons (after S2's revelations, please stop reading if you haven't seen it!).

Admittedly I could easily put this down to "slightly strange non-canon pilot syndrome" (especially given poor Delenn's make-up, man I'm glad they swapped the Minbari's appearance for something less harsh before S1 began!), but the lurker's guide notes from JMS are quite insistent it should all be treated as canon.

Which leaves me a bit confused as to what Vorlons really are.

Are they physical creatures or beings of light? Or both? Perhaps interchangeably, can they switch between their original form and their non corporeal form, perhaps?

So sure, they're Angels (or, something non corporeal that appears in a slightly different way to each of the younger species), but Dr. Kyle's medical read-outs seemed to indicate they have a pulmonary system, a brain, blood cells, etc. But this doesn't seem to fit very well with what I saw save Sheridan from the train bomb! So which is it?

I'm starting to think that all the events of "The Gathering" may well have been staged by Kosh and his Vorlon friends as some sort of bizzare test of human intentions and motives, and possibly what Dr Kyle "saw" and his readings were all just telepathic manipulation, much as Kosh telepathically manipulates the persons in the garden in to seeing what he wanted them to see when he left his suit.

Additionally, was Del Varner supposedly in league with the Shadows? An earlier incarnation of what became the character of Mr. Morden? In which case perhaps the poisoning was real, even if Dr Kyle's successful "treatment" was all an illusion...

Thoughts?

 

[RoJoHen]

They must have some physical form, otherwise Kosh wouldn't have been able to catch Sheridan on his way down.

 

[Neroon]

They must have some physical form, otherwise Kosh wouldn't have been able to catch Sheridan on his way down.

It's not nice to tease someone who has given so much to the TrekBBS.

Verteron, to be honest it's somewhat difficult to discuss much about this point without spoiling things for you, at least on the subject of a Vorlon's state of being.

However, moving on from that point... Varner isn't in league with the Shadows. "The Gathering" pretty much gives you that story's aspect as is. Varner was an opportunist but he wasn't in league with the Shadows. What is it that makes you feel that's a possibility?

 

[Brian]

It sounds like Verteron is thinking that no one from a younger race would have a clue as to how to poison a Vorlon (so they must have gotten it from an older race like the Shadows), which is a very good point. We'll just have to file that under "unanswered questions", along with how a skin patch was used to poison Kosh while he was in his encounter suit.

 

[Lindley]

Suffice it to say that Kosh may have assumed a more "physical" state in order to greet Sinclair there.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What I wonder is, why is the Vorlon government called an 'Empire'? Do they actually have one?

Or is it, as I suspect, JMS simply running out of different words to use? Notice how every one of them conveniently has a different name: Earth ALLIANCE, Narn REGIME , Centauri REPUBLIC, Minbari FEDERATION, etc.

 

[Caleuche]

^Its been a while since I've seen season one but doesn't Sinclair realise that the skin tab shouldn't have affected Kosh or penerated his encounter suit later in the first season? I've always thought it Kosh got poisoned because

Spoiler: The reason he did this was...

it allowed him to make contact with Lyta?

As for the original post, sadly Neroon is right. The nature of the Vorlons gives away too much about where the plot is going.

 

[Neroon]

Spoiler: The reason he did this was...

it allowed him to make contact with Lyta?

Not sure I follow, because we see in

Spoiler: In the Beginning

that Kosh had his encounter suit when conversing with Dukhat, long before he would have come into contact with Lyta

 

[Caleuche]

The poison shouldn't have made it through the encounter suit and it shouldn't have affected him given what we later learn about his biology so what I'm suggesting is that

Spoiler: What I'm suggesting is...

Kosh wasn't really poisoned. He allowed the fake Sinclair to seemingly poison him so he could fake his illness in the hope that the Humans would use their telepath so that he could implant the suggestion in her mind to go where she later went so that they could do what they later did to her without it looking like they had saught her out!

This is very difficult to explain without spoiling later on!

 

[Neroon]

Actually, I see precisely what you're saying, now. Very interesting....

 

[Verteron]

I should've been more forthcoming really.

I have seen quite a lot of S3/S4 already, just unfortunately never got around to watching the series end to end with every single episode in the right continuity / order.

It's possible that I've missed something really big, but I never really got how the Vorlons appear to be squid-like energy beings that occasionally masquerade as Angels on the one hand, but on the other hand, they can be poisoned by a skin tab.

Must've been a subterfuge. Must be. I mean, these folks are practically gods, right? Caleuche's suggestion seems like a very reasonable one given what transpires in S3/S4 (which I have more or less of an outline of, even if I've not seen every episode, I know what happens to you-know-who, anyway).

And yes, if the poisoning was real, I figured there's no way someone from the younger races would've been able to poison a Vorlon, so the poison must've been sourced from some other First One, at least, that would seem sensible, would it not?

 

[DS9Continuing]

Okay, if you really have seen so much, then I'm gonna go ahead and say all this because it shouldn't be a spoiler to you. But just in case, I'll leave spoiler space, because I'll be writing too much to put it all under a spoiler button.

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SPOILER SPACE
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Are they physical creatures or beings of light? Or both? Perhaps interchangeably, can they switch between their original form and their non corporeal form, perhaps?

It's not a matter of either / or. They're both and neither at the same time. All First Ones developed from corporeal, physical entities like us originally, so there's something of that aspect still to them.

It sounds like Verteron is thinking that no one from a younger race would have a clue as to how to poison a Vorlon (so they must have gotten it from an older race like the Shadows), which is a very good point. We'll just have to file that under "unanswered questions", ...

True, a younger race wouldn't know how to poison a Vorlon... unless they got that information from a First One. Del Varner isn't in league with the Shadows, but then Del Varner is just a pasty, a go-between. The one in league with the Shadows is the Minbari assassin.

Delenn mentions he belongs to a rogue faction of Minbari - a faction that is mentioned again in "Deathwalker," "Legacies" and "Points of Departure." A faction that has already turned against mainstream Minbari society, thus placing them in a perfect position to be influenced by agents of the Shadows, just like aspects of the Earth government were.

So it's the Shadows who sent the Minbari assassin to kill Kosh (perhaps knowingly, perhaps not) with poison. They know that A) if it works, yay, dead Vorlon, and B) if it doesn't work, they still get to frame Sinclair and start a war. Either way pretty good for them.

...along with how a skin patch was used to poison Kosh while he was in his encounter suit.

As JMS himself said, "It's not a plot hole, it's a plot point." Kosh got poisoned because he came out of his encounter suit. He presented himself to Sinclair in his (sorta) real form, because he "knew" Sinclair pretty closely already and trusted him, and wanted to honour him. Unfortunately that also gave a sneaky Minbari renegade with a changeling net the perfect opportunity. Benefits of inside knowledge.

What I wonder is, why is the Vorlon government called an 'Empire'? Do they actually have one?

Purely to keep people guessing. Nobody knows the truth, but calling yourself an Empire immediately makes you sound imposing and not to be trifled with. It says "Don't mess with us" in a nicely succinct way.



.

 

[Reverend]

Since Jan appears to have nodded off again, here's what JMS has said about Kosh faking the poisoning.

No, he wasn't faking it. Understand that their appearance as a
being of light is only how they want to appear; they are life forms
much the same as many others, and can be poisoned if one knows the
right combination of substances.

jms

As for how the poison got through the suit...

It didn't have to get past the encounter suit; he was distinctly
shown extending a portion of himself *outside* the suit.

jms

...and he did that because...

Kosh extended a hand...because he recognized Sinclair.

Which is all I'll say for now.

jms

Of course the next question is why did we see a human hand? The answer would obviously be because that was Lyta's hand; she specifically said before she scanned him that she'd see herself in Kosh's place. As for how he recognised Sinclair, anyone who's seen "War Without End" will know. On the off chance the OP hasn't, I shan't elaborate.

 

[Neroon]

This is one of those plot points that requires a fair amount of thought to reason through. What becomes confusing is that what appears to convey the poison is a device we've seen used elsewhere in the series. It's called a slapper, and it would seem to require physical contact. Most new viewers will have only seen Kosh in a non-corporeal form. Even the vision that resuces Sheridan could still be non-corporeal, having known how to manipulate physical objecgts by mere application of energy.

 

[Reverend]

Kosh was very corporal when he first reveals himself. The divine image everyone sees is a telepathic projection who's groundwork has been buried in the subconscious of the various races. This is why he later says being seen by so many was a great strain; it took conscious effort on his part to make everyone (save the Centauri) see what they saw. Which is why we saw Kosh and Ulkesh in their natural forms in season 4; they were not projecting that image but they were still very much physical beings. If they were just energy then PPGs would do nothing as they are not exacly energy based weapons but plasma (superheated helium to be precise.)

 

[Sean_McCormick]

[...]
(given what we know of the Centauri, why didn't he call *them* an empire? They are clearly more 'empirical' than the Vorlons. Hell, they even have an Emperor!)

I posted this before, so sorry for the repeat.

The Centauri were modeled on the Roman Empire, and they were a republic which then became an empire, but they did not called themselves that but still considered themselves to be a republic.

 

[USS KG5]

The poisoning scene contains B5's best "Rosebud" moment IMHO, which presumably was in the original version as well as the special edition??

 

[Jan]

The poisoning scene contains B5's best "Rosebud" moment IMHO, which presumably was in the original version as well as the special edition??

You mean the words that we hear from Kosh when he sees Sinclair?

Spoiler: War Without End

No, that's internal dialogue when we hear "Entil'zha Valen" and it was added for the special edition.

Jan

 

[Neroon]

Personally, I was not exactly thrilled with that change. But, to each their own.

 

[Reverend]

Well that name is only referred to in passing for most of the series and as I recall it wasn't until "Passing Through Gethsemane" that we found out roughly what he was about. To someone new coming into the series and starting with "The Gathering" that reference would be meaningless the first time round.

JMS often put HUGE hints right up in plain sight, but with out any context with which to determine their significance until much later.

For example...

Spoiler: War Without End

When Draal calls out for Zathras in "The Long, Twilight Struggle"