New Cirroc Lofton/Jake thread

[PSGarak]

Since the other one got shut down, I figured I'd start a new one. The discussion of the character was shaping into an interesting one. I always liked the character of Jake, largely because of how realistically he was portrayed and for how the actor grew so well into the role. He was one of the few recurring kid characters on any show I found not only tolerable but enjoyable. The writers got it right in not treating him like a plot device but letting him be a person in his own right.

 

[Sykonee]

(refrained from posting in the other one when it was so hopelessly derailed, so...)

How can you not give Jake props? The guy got his mack on with a Dabo Girl!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I would like to add back the last on-topic point I made that unfortunately never got answered because of the...derailment.

Someone expressed displeasure with the risk-taking behavior Jake showed in the pursuit of a story, once he became a journalist and said that it was unrealistic. To which I said this:

Jake seemed barely in it, and half of the time he was in it, he was used quite well. The other half, well... come on, his "I need to put my life in danger because I'm a WRITER!" got old pretty fast.

I dunno...ever read Anderson Cooper's biography, and some of the reasons that he ended up as a war correspondent? It's actually pretty striking if you read about his early life...just like Jake, he suffered the loss of a parent early in life, and in his case he also lost a brother. If you read the Wikipedia article, you almost find yourself wondering if some of the reason he went to the high-risk areas that he traveled to was to try and find answers to the questions that those incidents raised in his mind, when he was young.

Jake Sisko, too, has seen and experienced a lot. And to me, it actually doesn't seem so unreasonable given this real-life precedent, that he might feel driven to the same kind of risk-taking behavior that Anderson Cooper has.

(BTW, by "seen and experienced a lot", I meant "a lot of rough stuff." But I can't go back and edit in the original thread now.)

 

[PSGarak]

Ah! I never could see exactly where your point came from in that thread, but I have to say to a large degree what you said makes sense. Many people who are passionately drawn to journalism and to pursuing it in the more dangerous situations have faced tragedy in their lives, often when young. It's not thrill seeking or adrenaline addiction. It seems to be a more deep seated need to find answers in a larger context. Universal truths, so to speak.

 

[Jono]

One of the major times they dropped the ball with Jake was not giving him a farewell scene with his father. After all they went through Sisko not appearing to his son, or dragging him into the vision Kasidy had felt wrong. Particularly given what Ben knew he son did in an alternate timeline to save him. You can do that and still have the final scene with Jake and Kira looking out of the upper promenade window at the wormhole.

On the other hand, if they did we might not have got my favourite of the DS9 relaunch novels: Rising Son.

 

[Eyes]

Jake was the best handled kid on Star Trek. I always think that he wasn't used enough, especially in Season 7, when he was a recurring character in all but name, but then if he was used more, the writers wouldn't really know what to do with him all the time. As it stands, of the 5 Jake episodes we got, the Muse was a dud, Valiant and In the Cards were about his and Nog's friendship, a friendship that worked very well over the series run, and The Visitor and Nor the Battle were pure gold. They also happen to be my 2 favourite episodes of all Star Trek.

Particularly in Season 7, there were many times where Jake should have been used, without messing up the story. The first one that springs to mind is Badda-Bing, where his father, his father's girlfriend, best friend, and the rest of the main cast are going to the holosuite, I don't see where Jake is during all of this, especially since he's been to Vic's before, more times than his dad anyway.

 

[PlainSimpleJoel]

I for one, did like what happened with Jake's character. He was able to follow his own destiny.

As PKTrekGirl mentioned what happened in 2001/2002, as I joined around that time. It was part of the reason why I didn't post much in the trek forums then.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Ah! I never could see exactly where your point came from in that thread, but I have to say to a large degree what you said makes sense. Many people who are passionately drawn to journalism and to pursuing it in the more dangerous situations have faced tragedy in their lives, often when young. It's not thrill seeking or adrenaline addiction. It seems to be a more deep seated need to find answers in a larger context. Universal truths, so to speak.

Exactly. When I saw Anderson Cooper interviewed about it, that's very much how he put it--that it was a way of seeking answers.

 

[StarryEyed]

Jake was a good character exactly because he didn't follow in his father's footsteps.

It sure helped that Avery Brooks and Cirroc Lofton hit it off together and evolved a close real-life relationship. It really showed in a lot of episodes. They were very believable as father and son.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Normal kid.

Abnormal kid.

 

[Tosk]

My first reaction to Jake 'way back when' was, "Oh no...why does there always have to be a kid?"

Little did I know that this time we would get a realistic kid played by a reasonably capable actor (who got much better as time went on) and one half of one of the most believable relationships in Trek history. (The strong bond between Cirroc and Avery really came through in their performances.)

And then you have the Jake/Nog friendship, moments from which often made me laugh out loud. (Not quite as good as the Miles/Julian friendship, but few are. )

 

[bbailey861]

Normal kid.

Abnormal kid.

I think that this is quite likely the reason that Jake turned out the way he did. The writers had seen what a mess had been made of Wesley on TNG and set out to make things right with Jake on DS9.

My first reaction to Jake 'way back when' was, "Oh no...why does there always have to be a kid?"

Little did I know that this time we would get a realistic kid played by a reasonably capable actor (who got much better as time went on) and one half of one of the most believable relationships in Trek history. (The strong bond between Cirroc and Avery really came through in their performances.)

And then you have the Jake/Nog friendship, moments from which often made me laugh out loud. (Not quite as good as the Miles/Julian friendship, but few are. )

And by right, I mean the style of relationships he had - specifically with his dad and his best friend. Both were quite believable because it seemed very real and natural. A credit also, no doubt, to the talent of Cirroc Lofton, who did get markedly better with each performance. He simply needed to get comfortable in Jake's skin which was something many of the other actors/characters had to do in that first year. I loved the early scenes with Nog; getting in trouble is typically what boys do. Watching him mature and develop over the seven years was also very real, particularly in the age ranges he went through over the course of the years. The DS9 novel relaunch played to his character strengths and kept things moving along nicely.

Byron

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Normal kid.

Abnormal kid.

I think that this is quite likely the reason that Jake turned out the way he did. The writers had seen what a mess had been made of Wesley on TNG and set out to make things right with Jake on DS9.

Wesley might not have been quite so bad if we got to see more of the downside of his intellect...if we really SAW the consequences of his social ineptness, perhaps, or if we saw him perhaps NOT taken seriously by adults even after turning out to be correct on more than one occasion, NOT granted a whole lot of unrealistic responsibility. But that's just me.

 

[Kelso]

Was I the only one disappointed when Jake didn't hook up with Ziyal?

It would have been a bit cliche, I suppose (too Romeo and Juliet?), but I was pulling for it.

 

[PSGarak]

Was I the only one disappointed when Jake didn't hook up with Ziyal?

It would have been a bit cliche, I suppose (too Romeo and Juliet?), but I was pulling for it.

I think it would've made a lot more sense than Garak and Ziyal, frankly. They were just so far apart in age. I know that sometimes that does work even irl with people, but Jake and Ziyal would've seemed less forced to me.

 

[doctorfoto]

I'm going to post this and finally get it off my chest. Jake is my least favorite character in the main cast. Not because he was "the kid" or because I thought Lofton was a bad actor (Lofton had enormous growth during the run - and that's sometimes iffy when you have a child actor) I just think in many ways Jake was handled poorly.

I will say first, I was really happy that the writers decided NOT to put him in Starfleet. Early promotional materials and even his action figure suggested he would follow in his Dad's footsteps. The problem is, when you have him decide to be a writer, especially a writer of novels, you've painted yourself in a corner. There's not much you can DO with that. You just have him constantly hanging around in places - "working on a story" ... and that's boring.

The thing is though - they had quite a few ways out of that box. Quark suggested he write holosuite programs - not ideal but at least you could SEE the work he was doing. The fact that he was accepted and "would be going to the Pennington school on Earth" annoyed me too... How long did they hold a place for him?...Four years? I thought the prospect of working for the Federation News Service was a better fit for the show and his talents, which he dabbled in but didn't pursue heavily.

Aside from Generations, we haven't seen much of the press in the Federation. And that's a shame, it's an interesting avenue to go down. The beauty of the press is that they can go where the action is - where Starfleet is. And their constant need for a good story without being under the rules of Starfleet would get Jake into all kinds of interesting trouble - such as in "Nor the Battle"

When Jake stayed behind when the station was taken over by the Dominion and the Cardassians - two of the most ruthless villains in Trek, I think Jake should have gotten the absolute crap beaten out of him, while in the service of the news service. He would have found cause - and risen as the primary reporter of the Dominion War. And Sisko would have been all the more riled up to defeat the Dominion. ....Missed opportunity.

Again Jake, not O'Brien should have been the one investigating the Orion Syndicate, as an undercover reporter for the news service. There was a myriad of opportunities to give this kid more interesting plotlines, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one who wondered - "What does this guy DO all day?!?"

 

[bbailey861]

^ While I was sufficiently pleased with the amount of play that Jake got on the series and wouldn't really have wanted him to become any more a major player than he was.....I have to admit I really like those story ideas. A few episodes more, covering those ideas, would have really given additional depth to both Jake and the Dominion War. WRT issues of the press and how journalists are treated, how they get their stories, and the covering both sides of the story, I am quite sure Cirroc Lofton would have liked to wrap his acting chops around those topics. Yes, missed opportunites, indeed. Thanks for that.

Byron

 

[DevilEyes]

Was I the only one disappointed when Jake didn't hook up with Ziyal?

It would have been a bit cliche, I suppose (too Romeo and Juliet?), but I was pulling for it.

I'm not sure if I would have liked that (then again, I wasn't wild about Garak/Ziyal either), but it would have been nice to have them interact a bit. Especially during the Dominion occupation 6-parter - that could have been interesting. (And it was actually done in Trek Lit in the story "Three Sides to Every Story" from Prophecy and Change, where they become friends.)

 

[Navaros]

I like Jake as a character because Lofton did really well with his performance the role (although his acting was very bad in Season 1 in particular.)

However, I don't agree that he became an interesting character. Having him become a writer was colossally uninteresting.

Shows are for showing, not telling. All that happened with Jake once he became a writer is we are constantly being told he is a great writer. That doesn't work as entertainment IMO.

I'm not saying they should have made Jake join SF, but they should have done something interesting with him that they could show instead of tell.

doctorfoto has made the same point that I am trying to make, quite well. If they insisted on making Jake a writer, it would have been far better to do things with him like doctoerfoto has suggested, rather than what they actually did do with him.