Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there???

[Cadet49]

Sorry if this has been discussed before... I can't remember...

In Star Trek Nemesis, as they are retreating from Romulan Space, the crew of the Enterprise-E take a route through the Bassen Rift on their way back to Federation space to rendevous with the fleet that is being sent to stop Shinzon's invasion efforts. Traveling through the nebula disrupts several ship systems, including communications - Shinzon takes advantage of this, using the Nebula as an ambush opportunity. As they enter the rift, Picard suddenly realized the potential for an ambush, as does Data (based on the look on his face when he tells Picard the rift interferes with ship systems) and orders shields raised ... but too late. Several Enterprise crew members, including Data, die in the following space battle within the nebula.

If an investigation were to be held following the incident, would someone on the crew be charged with negligence for not properly researching the path they were taking home, to prepare precautions ahead of time, like raising the shields, and going to tactical alert? The movie seemed to indicate it took some time before they reached the Nebula ... this is supposedly a crew of 800+, with a full science department, and Data, with records and science information galore in his databanks - surely someone would have known about the problems starships have while in nebulas (Didn't the Enterprise-D hide from the Borg in a nebula in Best of Both Worlds, where they couldn't contact Starfleet? Indeed, way back in the 23rd century, in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, Savvik knew the problems nebulas cause starships - as she warned Kirk, "no communications, shields will be useless..." etc.).

When Data informs Picard that the nebula will interfere with all long-range communications, he says it as though it is common information stored in his data banks - he says it very "matter-of-fact", then his voice fades as he seems to suddenly realize the danger. The captain seemed to immediately recognize the tactical danger, as soon as he was informed - was someone negligent in not pointing out the risks to him earlier?

If there was an inquiry of the incident following the Enterprise-E returning home, would a charge of negligence had been made against someone on the crew - the science staff, perhaps?

How did no one realize the tactical problem?

 

[Candlelight]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Similar to that, why was the fleet waiting on the far side of the rift?

 

[DWF]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

At warp 9 what ship could catch them?

 

[Candlelight]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Romulan ships have always been capable of catching Federation ships (TNG Warbirds had been clocked at warp 9.6), although we never knew of the Enterprise's top speed.

 

[DWF]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Romulan ships have always been capable of catching Federation ships (TNG Warbords had been clocked at warp 9.6), although we never knew of the Enterprise's top speed.

The only way the Warbird in Tin Man could outrun the Enterprise was by making it a one way trip. It's rare that that ship can outrun anything going warp 9.7 or higher. As for her top speed it's true we don't know that for certain but it was the flagship and the most powerful ship in the fleet so I do think it it had a high top end.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Given that the E crew knew the Scimitar essentially outclassed the E in all known respects, it would be ludicrous for them not to also assume, even if just to play it safe, that the Scimitar could also outrun them.

When dealing with a hostile power, why would you not err on the side of caution?

I'd love to know what the Fed fleet was doing during the Nemesis battle..."Well, we'll just wait here, on the edge of this communications-blocking nebula, for a message from the Enterprise, which is likely inside the communications-blocking nebula..."

 

[DWF]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Given that the E crew knew the Scimitar essentially outclassed the E in all known respects, it would be ludicrous for them not to also assume, even if just to play it safe, that the Scimitar could also outrun them.

When dealing with a hostile power, why would you not err on the side of caution?

I'd love to know what the Fed fleet was doing during the Nemesis battle..."Well, we'll just wait here, on the edge of this communications-blocking nebula, for a message from the Enterprise, which is likely inside the communications-blocking nebula..."

Shinzon didn't even start out once though and not only did they outrun the Enterprise they took out the shields and engines with just two hits at warp speed and cloaked. I remember being impressed at the time. Then in the next movie Nero shows up in an even more powerful mining ship, I have to wonder if their late entry into the Dominion war inabled then to make some huge and powerful vessels.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

It was because Admiral Ackbar wasn't there to serve as a tactical advisor.

 

[DWF]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

^^^^It's a trap!!

 

[Candlelight]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Given that the E crew knew the Scimitar essentially outclassed the E in all known respects, it would be ludicrous for them not to also assume, even if just to play it safe, that the Scimitar could also outrun them.

When dealing with a hostile power, why would you not err on the side of caution?

I'd love to know what the Fed fleet was doing during the Nemesis battle..."Well, we'll just wait here, on the edge of this communications-blocking nebula, for a message from the Enterprise, which is likely inside the communications-blocking nebula..."

Shinzon didn't even start out once though and not only did they outrun the Enterprise they took out the shields and engines with just two hits at warp speed and cloaked. I remember being impressed at the time. Then in the next movie Nero shows up in an even more powerful mining ship, I have to wonder if their late entry into the Dominion war inabled then to make some huge and powerful vessels.

Nero's ship was just a mining vessel!

 

[DonIago]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Then in the next movie Nero shows up in an even more powerful mining ship, I have to wonder if their late entry into the Dominion war inabled then to make some huge and powerful vessels.

I'm not sure it's safe to assume the Narada was more powerful than the Scimitar, as the latter was fighting 24th century ships while the former was attacking ships from a significantly earlier time period.

Would the Narada be much of a threat for the Enterprise-D or E if it didn't have the red matter Nero stole from Spock? Its weaponry didn't seem particularly noteworthy, certainly nothing on the scale of a quantum torpedo, IMO, and if it had phasers we never saw them in use.

 

[DWF]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Given that the E crew knew the Scimitar essentially outclassed the E in all known respects, it would be ludicrous for them not to also assume, even if just to play it safe, that the Scimitar could also outrun them.

When dealing with a hostile power, why would you not err on the side of caution?

I'd love to know what the Fed fleet was doing during the Nemesis battle..."Well, we'll just wait here, on the edge of this communications-blocking nebula, for a message from the Enterprise, which is likely inside the communications-blocking nebula..."

!

Shinzon didn't even start out once though and not only did they outrun the Enterprise they took out the shields and engines with just two hits at warp speed and cloaked. I remember being impressed at the time. Then in the next movie Nero shows up in an even more powerful mining ship, I have to wonder if their late entry into the Dominion war inabled then to make some huge and powerful vessels.

Nero's ship was just a mining vessel!

I did say as much but even it took on fleets of ships

 

[DWF]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Then in the next movie Nero shows up in an even more powerful mining ship, I have to wonder if their late entry into the Dominion war inabled then to make some huge and powerful vessels.

I'm not sure it's safe to assume the Narada was more powerful than the Scimitar, as the latter was fighting 24th century ships while the former was attacking ships from a significantly earlier time period.

Would the Narada be much of a threat for the Enterprise-D or E if it didn't have the red matter Nero stole from Spock? Its weaponry didn't seem particularly noteworthy, certainly nothing on the scale of a quantum torpedo, IMO, and if it had phasers we never saw them in use.

In the comic book prequel Nero took on Worf and some 47 Birds Of Prey in the 24th century before taking out the 23rd century Federation vessels in the movie.

 

[MANT!]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Because the writers thought the audience was stupid...

 

[DonIago]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Then in the next movie Nero shows up in an even more powerful mining ship, I have to wonder if their late entry into the Dominion war inabled then to make some huge and powerful vessels.

I'm not sure it's safe to assume the Narada was more powerful than the Scimitar, as the latter was fighting 24th century ships while the former was attacking ships from a significantly earlier time period.

Would the Narada be much of a threat for the Enterprise-D or E if it didn't have the red matter Nero stole from Spock? Its weaponry didn't seem particularly noteworthy, certainly nothing on the scale of a quantum torpedo, IMO, and if it had phasers we never saw them in use.

In the comic book prequel Nero took on Worf and some 47 Birds Of Prey in the 24th century before taking out the 23rd century Federation vessels in the movie.

I thought the Birds of Prey were taken out at Rura Penthe in the past? Anyway, that's nothing the Dominion couldn't do. But granted I can't see the Enterprise taking out 47 BoPs.

Hm, I wonder whether this is a case where we're better off with the comic being non-canon...

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

Because the writers thought the audience was stupid...

Or they were writing for a non-Trek audience.

 

[Candlelight]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

!

Shinzon didn't even start out once though and not only did they outrun the Enterprise they took out the shields and engines with just two hits at warp speed and cloaked. I remember being impressed at the time. Then in the next movie Nero shows up in an even more powerful mining ship, I have to wonder if their late entry into the Dominion war inabled then to make some huge and powerful vessels.

Nero's ship was just a mining vessel!

I did say as much but even it took on fleets of ships

I know.

I was trying for a point but completely missed it. Can't remember what it was.

 

[Timo]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

I don't think it would be doctrinally common to assume an ambush during a chase! Nor do I think that this made particularly good sense from the POV of the villains.

If Shinzon was capable of catching the E-E, why should he wait for a specific ambush point? The sooner he struck, the sooner he would get his precious blood. Picard would have been thinking in such terms, too: since Shinzon had not yet attacked, he evidently had not yet caught up with the E-E.

There was no real benefit from striking when the E-E was in a communications-inhibiting nebula. Picard would already have sent every relevant message to Starfleet and would have gotten every relevant response. Whether he squealed a further "Help!" at the moment when Shinzon struck would be completely irrelevant: either Starfleet would be close enough to help him, or then not.

At the very best, the Starfleet forces would have to spend a few extra minutes searching for Picard in the Bassen soup due to sensor problems. But Shinzon wasn't interested in extra minutes. He was taking his time, not being pressed for it.

Okay, so perhaps Shinzon calculated that he had time to toy with Picard if and only if he chose the rift as their playground. Picard and Starfleet didn't think in terms of toying, though, and felt confident that since there had been no attack yet, there would be none any time soon. Only a madman would wait for Bassen's Rift. And Picard was slow to come up with the realization that Shinzon really was a madman.

It would seem the Starfleet forces were waiting on that side of the Romulan Neutral Zone that would not ignite a war. From Picard's testimony, it would already be evident that Shinzon was only in very tenuous command of the Romulan military, and that the elimination of this lone Spartacus would bring back the status quo that was in UFP interests - but that invading Romulan space with a combat fleet would seriously endanger this.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

It would seem the Starfleet forces were waiting on that side of the Romulan Neutral Zone that would not ignite a war. From Picard's testimony, it would already be evident that Shinzon was only in very tenuous command of the Romulan military, and that the elimination of this lone Spartacus would bring back the status quo that was in UFP interests - but that invading Romulan space with a combat fleet would seriously endanger this.

This is likely the best explanation. Simple and logical.

 

[Candlelight]

Re: Nemesis Nebula - how could the crew not anticipate an ambush there

If Shinzon was capable of catching the E-E, why should he wait for a specific ambush point? The sooner he struck, the sooner he would get his precious blood. Picard would have been thinking in such terms, too: since Shinzon had not yet attacked, he evidently had not yet caught up with the E-E.

He may have had to repair the ship. Picard and Data were last seen burning out of the observation room window in a scimitar shuttle, which caused a momentary tear in the cloaking device. In terms of overall cloaking (or shield) strength, they may have had to fix the damage before continuing the pursuit, or hang back until the ship was back to full strength.