My thoughts on DS9 first time rewatched as an adult

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Infern0, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    I saw pretty much all of DS9 during its original run but I was aged between 8-15 then, and a lot of it went over my head. I liked it but found the Bajorans "boring".

    Having just finished a rewatch I have to say this is my favourite series of all.

    It's the deepest show in my opinion, with a very wide range of characters. It's interesting to me that they take Worf and O'brien from TNG and make them really compelling characters. As well as even making antagonists such as Dukat somewhat sympathetic.

    I think it does the best job of character development as all these characters grow over the course of 7 seasons and events actually have future consequences.

    The whole show builds to the Dominion war arc which is fantastic.

    My only complaint was the character of Kai Winn who even now I just do not enjoy in any fashion, I'm not sure if this is intentional or not but I don't find her a compelling antagonist.
     
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  2. Nathan

    Nathan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I have the same thoughts. I guess I tend to like serials more than Planet of the Week type stories (of course, I like Planet of the Week stories too, but I think I'm more invested in serials as we get the "last time on DS9......" opening tag line.

    I guess Winn is an antagonist, but I think she was more of a "fly in the ointment" not much teeth, but just be a general pain in the ass.
     
  3. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I like Winn quite a bit, perhaps because I think that Louise Fletcher is an incredible actress. I suspect that something in the characterization was lost because as a villain, she was focused on Bajoran issues at a time when the show was extending beyond that range. She was best when her ambition, orthodoxy and nationalism created a counterpoint to Federation policies. Indeed, Rapture and In the Cards were perhaps Winn's best episodes, where on the one hand, she is helping Sisko to make sense of how to best serve Bajor in the context of galactic politics,but on the other, she was still showing her ambition. However, I think that people tend to dislike the character because the writers half-assed their presentation of her turn to the Pahwraiths, dribbling it out a little bit at a time rather than having a cohesive story.
     
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  4. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Commander Red Shirt

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    Agree with this. I think Winn was a fantastic antagonist that got used just a little too much. DS9 was so good at baddies; I mean, who doesn't love Weyoun?
     
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  5. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    Thats the thing.

    Coombs and Ailmo have so much charisma that Winn just seemed a bit vanilla to me by comparrison. At times Dukat and even Weyoun can make you smile.

    I think Dukat is the best bad guy in Trek history, because at times you ACTUALLY start liking him then think "what am I thinking!!"

    Its almost unfair to compare anyone to Ailmo and Coombs because both of those guys BRING IT every single scene
     
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  6. Gul Sengosts

    Gul Sengosts Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It clearly is the deepest show. Everyone loves Gul Dukat and Weyoun, but I also love Kai Winn even though she repulses me. I think she's a pretty complex, very real character. Via my mother I got to know a few dominance-seeking manipulative people in a church context, I got to know how there's not much you can do to get rid of them and how you have to somehow live with them because they have so much influence, and I think Kai Winn is spot on.

    I can even appreciate that she isn't just evil (although when originally introduced she was pretty evil), but that she has beliefs that may not make her more likable but that give context and make her somewhat understandable from her point of view. As much as I hate her, I can't just dismiss her as a pure villain--and maybe for that I hate and appreciate her even more. This is more of DS9's depth, and she's superbly acted.

    I must exclude late DS9 though, what that did with Gul Dukat and Kai Winn was just stupid.
     
  7. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with your reaction in general with some minor disagreements. Like, I agree O’Brien is more compelling in DS9 but don’t like a lot of what they did with Worf.

    And I like Kai Winn as the ‘Modern politician as villain’. Until the last few eps, she is one of the most realistic politicians on TV.

    Also I strongly disagree Dukat is the slightest bit sympathetic. He is a psychopath. He has a practiced faux-sympathetic veneer, but he has no real empathy except maybe for Ziyal and no real interests beyond trying to make others consider him great.
     
  8. Armus

    Armus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^Marc Alaimo was so charismatic, one couldn't help liking Dukat, even when he became a demon posesssed psychopath.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  9. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Rewatching 'HomeFront/Paradise Lost' recently, it seems very prescient of post-9/11 crackdowns.
     
  10. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    DS9 made a lot more sense, post-9/11.
     
  11. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Really good points. Worf in particular underwent so much growth in four years on DS9 compared to seven on TNG, that it always felt awkward in the TNG features, where the need to put him right back in the subordinate position left it feeling like a 30 year old moving home to his parents' basement again. ;)
     
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  12. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He became demon possessed, he was already a psychopath. :)

    Yeah, I loved him as a villain, just it's impossible to sympathize with him.
     
  13. Paul755

    Paul755 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Yeah, in retrospect Worf on DS9 was such a better fit than he was on TNG.
     
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  14. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ironically, the last time I watched TNG: "Birthright Part 1", I actually thought the same thing. Even before he joined DS9 permanently, seeing him there on the Promenade just felt right. He was a great fit for Deep Space Nine's more shades of grey world view.
     
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  15. Roundabout

    Roundabout Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    DS9's shades of gray world view might be easier to comprehend and appreciate for an adult viewer. I have been re-watching season 1 episodes of DS9 on H&I.

    There are two scenes in particular, from the re-watch, that have stuck in mind which, for me, had encapsulated the difference between DS9 and the more black and white perspective of TNG.

    The first one, "I'm not Picard", as Sisko explained to Q after decking him to the ground. I think the point was clear that we're no longer in the idealistic world of Picard and TNG anymore.

    The other one was the scene at the end of "The Passenger", where Kajada (the alien law enforcement guest character) fired her phaser and vaporized the container that held the consciousness of Vantika (the evil criminal who had been on the loose) while Sisko, Dax and Bashir looked on, seemingly, approving of it.

    I can't imagine Picard would have approved of what Kajada did. When I saw that scene, it made me think of how Picard handled the crystalline entity and Moriarty. Picard was pissed when that woman scientist destroyed the crystalline entity even though Picard knew the entity killed many people including humans and the woman's child.

    I got the impression from that scene that the DS9 writer's deliberately wanted to make clear to the viewer that DS9 was going to be the antithesis Trek series to TNG.
     
  16. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    I appreciated VOY more and DS9 less during my adolescence. As an adult, it is reversed.

    Kor
     
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  17. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Commander Red Shirt

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    To be fair, TNG wasn't really focused on character growth like DS9. I wouldn't say any TNG character underwent significant growth.
     
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  18. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True, but there was a lot of depth added to the characters. We definitely learn more about them without it feeling as if details were simply tacked on, but that they made sense organically to the character--save Ambo-Jitsu, of course.
     
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  19. Armus

    Armus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There's a balance where there is character growth while maintaining a character's integrity. Take the Odo-Quark, O'brien-Bashir relationship; the audience doesn't want the characters to change their essential nature in a way that would alter the charm of those relationships. People do evolve and refine themselves but deep down, in their core being, most people remain the same.

    It's best when writers can create drama while maintaining the consistency of the characters' nature.
     
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  20. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Don't get me wrong, in terms of actual tangible character growth, Worf was probably one of only a couple characters that really did seem to grow over seven seasons on TNG. It's just that DS9 took him to so many new places, that it always felt awkward to me when he went back to the Enterprise in the TNG movies and it basically felt like he was the 30 year old guy who moves back into his parent's basement, and is back under the thumb of mom and dad after having been places and done things as an adult in the world. Not that there's anything wrong with that, lol.
     
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