Movie Picard and NuTrek Kirk

[Joel_Kirk]

Looking at RedLetterMedia's reviews of the TNG movies a week or two ago (for the second or third or fourth time) I was thinking about how many of the criticisms of nuTrek is how reckless PineKirk is.

Picard breaks the Prime Directive in practically each film, when he would be self-righteous in the series. He's inconsistent with his orders, when he would give a long self-righteous speech about 'wearing that uniform' in the series. And, actionPicard is more apt to pick up a phaser or phaser rifle first than talk....where PineKirk may talk first but feel like shooting you if you'd already pissed him off (e.g. Nero).

Now, out of universe, seriesPicard wouldn't have worked. Movie tickets have to be sold. Hence, the reason actionPicard with sidekick Data tended to be the norm for the TNG films.

On the other hand, we have PineKirk who uses his command to get laid, disobeys orders frequently, and has his ship taken away for the duration of the speech given to him by his mentor Pike. He has been described by some fans as a 'frat boy' or 'douche'....

The thing is: We still can have some sort of change with nuKirk and crew where we see them 'grow up,' but Picard and crew seemed to have done a 180 from their series counterparts which clashed with what the producers and writers wanted.

Again, both the TNG films and nuTrek have been heavily criticized. Although, the TNG films were losing fans (and not really gaining any new ones) while nuTrek is maintaining a fan base that likes action or those who are digging the characters and seeing where this franchise is headed.

It's just interesting how similar fan comments are, in relation to the series at these particular points in time, and how there are similarities to the longevity of the movies. For example, as time goes on, we'll see if the nuTrek films will stand the test of time.

I saw "Independence Day" around four times in the theater because it was cool seeing a black man in the lead and saving the world. Today, I think the film is cheesy and I can't watch it without pointing out the logic errors, dialogue, etc...etc..etc..

I used to own the 2009 "Star Trek" but that scene - Kirk taking command - never rang true with me. I felt, and still feel, he never earned that chair. And, I was hoping to see him earn it in the next film....which turned out to be a retread of a film back in 1982.

I guess I'm waiting for the "Star Trek" equivalent to the Daniel Craig era, even though I understand the 2009 film was made in reaction to Daniel Craig's "Casino Royale."

Can we say that Archer to nuKirk to Picard to Sisko and Janeway are each a bit reckless for their own good? (ShatnerKirk played everything by the book in TWOK, and that got his ship phasered severely - something that possibly would have or could have happened to seriesPicard in a similar situation).

(I want to say more, but I want to play some STO, and I have some movies to watch....people to chat with...sleep to catch up on...writing to do).

Looking forward to anyone's thoughts...

 

[IrishNero]

I'm glad you picked up on the Picard differences because I thought it was just me. Picard seems a bit more haphazard in his dealings in the movies vice his more demure demeanor during the series. Perhaps they just wanted the character to grow. It may also be due to writing staff changes or a need to ramp up the action for the big screen. Whatever the case, it's a change. I think data and Picard were always the most popular characters for that series so it's probably no coincidence that they saw more screentime.

Pinekirk, on the other hand, is night and day from the series Kirk. I don't find any surprise here either because Pinekirk is built to suit today's action-oriented audience. He seems far less calculating and gets throttled in every fight. Perhaps they'll ramp up his fighting skills before he faces Gorn. Lol Thanks for the keen insight!

 

[Orphalesion]

Oh I would say movie Picard is also night and day from series Picard. Series Picard, while also displaying a certain wild streak, always was a calm, collected and sophisticated person.
Movie Picard? He's screaming and jumping around like a howler monkey!
I personally think with the TNG movies a lot of the actors got too much say in what to do with their characters; Stewart demaned more action scenes. Spiner more screen time/focus on Data, Marina Sirtis...just played herself instead of Troi for good bunch of the movies, Gates McFadden...was non-existant, while they kept bringing back Worf with little to no justification just because he had been on the series.

Pinekrk...he's just a jerk imho.

 

[Makarov]

I dont agree with the action Picard thing. I believe the movies are more action oriented than the TNG series episodes in general, not that Picard is suddenly a different character. He was bad ass in a lot of the series as well, including going John McClane to rescue the enterprise, punching a terrorist on the bridge, sword fights as robin hood, and blowing up some dude's head in Conspiracy. And he flips out at times as well "not good enough damn it not good enough!"

 

[IrishNero]

The biggest change I see is actually that of Riker. He could be a genuine ass at times during the series, but his movie character actually seemed quite pleasant most of the time.

 

[Makarov]

Yeah I agree Riker seems nicer in the movies, maybe Picard telling him about his future in All Good Things loosened him up a bit.

 

[suarezguy]

While movie Picard was made too much of an action hero I don't think he outright preferred to fight rather than talk or recklessly broke the Prime Directive, he certainly tried to reach out to Dougherty, Shinzon and somewhat Soran and the Sona.

It's just interesting how similar fan comments are, in relation to the series at these particular points in time, and how there are similarities to the longevity of the movies.

I think 09 and ID have a lot of similarities, respectively, to Generations and Nemesis and it's interesting that they tend to be rated very differently.

 

[sonak]

The movie where Picard comes off the worst is "Insurrection"-he acts like a rebellious, love-struck adolescent. He's insubordinate and flips his position from "journey's end," which in Trek universe time, is only a few years before. In "Generations" and "Nemesis" he's basically the same as TV Picard, it's just that the movies are more action-oriented.

In "First Contact" he's pretty out of character, but that's given an in-movie explanation.

Redlettermedia's TNG reviews are funny, but they're also purposely slanted and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[USS Pertinax]

I would not had minded if we got action Riker and contemplative Picard.

 

[Cyke101]

I dont agree with the action Picard thing. I believe the movies are more action oriented than the TNG series episodes in general, not that Picard is suddenly a different character. He was bad ass in a lot of the series as well, including going John McClane to rescue the enterprise, punching a terrorist on the bridge, sword fights as robin hood, and blowing up some dude's head in Conspiracy. And he flips out at times as well "not good enough damn it not good enough!"

The thing though is, how often did we see that Picard in the series? For every "Action Picard" episode, we had about 2 seasons of him being his usual, contemplative self. And in those situations, violence was his last resort (even Robin Hood was more to play by Q's rules). In other action-packed episodes, Riker and Worf would still do the bulk of the fighting for him. That's what makes Action Picard seem so out of place. But in the process, he then robs Riker of those action scenes that we know him by; in the movies, he had to wait till Nemesis to actually get his own fight scene.

It's almost as if, the instant Renee died, Jean-Luc figured that he should take more chances. Nemesis seems to forget that each shuttle has an independent transporter, so he could have easily beamed an armed away team instead of trying to prove his macho self no matter how badly the E-E was damaged.

 

[Makarov]

I completely agree that action is more focused on in the movies than in TNG the show, since the movie scenarios call for action more than diplomacy... but I feel like it is down to telling a different kind of story rather than having a different Picard. The tone of the movies in general is way more action oriented.

All I'm saying is Picard has been a bad ass since the beginning rather than just an old guy that does diplomacy. He doesn't even like boring diplomatic meetings with admirals in the show.

They could totally do (or could have done) an exploration movie with Picard as his usual self, that might be more like TMP. I would be down for that, although the business suits might not be.

However, I do think Insurrection is the opposite of TNG Picard's stance in Journey's end. I enjoy Insurrection but I do think they contradicted all those episodes where Picard relocates settlements. I feel like they kept re-doing the relocation story so much that they forgot what they had written previously.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It's very telling how in NEMESIS, during the wedding reception, it's got almost nothing to do with the Happy Couple. The whole thing revolves entirely around Picard and Data. Jean-Luc's Best Man speech is just about as horrid as any you might expect in Real Life, only ... so rarely have I encountered any where the Best Man bragged on himself during almost all of it. Worst of all: Bill & Dee can't do nothing else in this entire sequence, but make cutesy faces at eachother, which nauseated me to end. Not the best way to introduce these characters, in my opinion ...

 

[Chronos]

Gates McFadden...was non-existant

Crusher was in the TNG movies? I hadn't noticed.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I preferred movie Picard to TV series Picard. I like to think he was always that badass, but just never got a chance to show it.

 

[T'Girl]

Gates McFadden...was non-existant

Crusher was in the TNG movies? I hadn't noticed.

There was a brief scene of her listening to Marina Sirtis talking about her up-coming breast augmentation surgery.

 

[Makarov]

I thought McFadden was awesome in the movies with what she was given.

"Once the captain has made his mind the discussion is over."

"Do a dance, tell a story, I don't care."

 

[Cyke101]

I thought McFadden was awesome in the movies with what she was given.

"Once the captain has made his mind the discussion is over."

"Do a dance, tell a story, I don't care."

Too bad that's all she was given, however

I'm really surprised at how much she figures into deleted scenes. It's like editors were in league with writers about how to reduce her screen time as much as possible. Hell, Lily is half of Beverly's original material.

 

[Lance]

The reason Picard was "changed" in the movies is actually retrospectively a very interesting study. In Generations he was essentially TV Picard. He tried to talk Soren down as a first preference. But in First Contact, they turned him into this vengeful person. FC Picard is an action-hero because the script is an action-movie script.

This is where it gets interesting. When it came time to write Insurrection, the movie producers had a decision to make: the morally upright commander of the TV show, or the action-hero? They took a middle ground, having him speechify to the Admiral, but then taking up arms against the Sona. Nemesis compounded this by adding the Argo "car chase" sequence, and also the escape scene on the Scimitar where Patrick Stewart got to run around in a tank top while shooting down soldiers using his phasers akimbo like somebody from a John Woo movie. In both cases it feels like a complete betrayal of the character we knew for 7 years on TV.

In retrospect we can see that Picard got taken down something of a narrative blind alley. While action-movie Picard was suited to the script of First Contact, he was put into similar situations in the following two movies because... well, he was so well received in First Contact. Which is ignoring the fact that First Contact actually had a narrative reason for him to be acting "out of character", and even had others (Worf, Beverly, Lilly) calling him out on his weird behaviour.

(As for Pine!Kirk, he's arguably just as much of a betrayal of the TOS Kirk character as the movie Picard was of TV Picard, but he's got the narrative excuse that he's not actually supposed to be exactly the same person anyway. Alternative universe Kirk, alternative universe character.)

 

[drt]

(As for Pine!Kirk, he's arguably just as much of a betrayal of the TOS Kirk character as the movie Picard was of TV Picard, but he's got the narrative excuse that he's not actually supposed to be exactly the same person anyway. Alternative universe Kirk, alternative universe character.)

NuKirk is really more of a "young Bennett/Meyerverse Kirk" crossed with "popculture Kirk".

 

[I am not Spock]

I was under the impression that NuTrek WAS Trek's answer to the Daniel Craig James Bond era, or the Christopher Nolan Batman era.

With Nemesis being Trek's Die Another Day, or Batman and Robin. The straw that broke the camel's back, leading to a long gap between films, and a fresh reboot