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Moral Obligations to Alternate Realities

MichaelStivic

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
The time-travel/alternate reality basis for Star Trek raises many questions-- for physicists, of course, but also for philosophers.

Using the circumstances of the movie we've all just seen, I have questions that I hope some of you will offer your thoughts on.

Nero and Spock were both transported backward through time which created an alternate timeline when they arrived (but didn't destroy the one they just left). Let's assume the parallel universe model is the correct one and that, unlike in Back to the Future, there is not a single, prime timeline that can be altered and restored.

If there are parallel universes, like in Sliders (and in the TNG episode where Worf goes from one reality to another), what moral obligations does one have to realities other than one's own? Of course, most people would not have the ability to have any impact on other realities, but in the rare cases (as in Star Trek) when they do, what moral considerations must come into play?

For example, Spock could now attempt to go back in time to save Vulcan from being destroyed. But does he know that he would simply create another reality where Vulcan is NOT destroyed and that the reality he left would go on with the pain that came from Vulcan's destruction? Beyond this, would someone well-versed in the parallel universe model understand that there are an infinite number of alternate realities where unspeakably horrible things have occurred in some and not in others? One can obviously not travel to each reality to fix the bad things that happen. And even if one did try to traverse realities, would they not simply be causing another branch to grow among countless other branches?

It seems to me that Spock, who unwittingly is transported back in time, is making a pre-eminently reasonable decision to do his best to positively influence the reality he finds himself in. Because he is likely unable to get back to the reality he just left (as in Sliders). Or, working in the Back to the Future model, his future, even if somewhat repaired by his actions to bring Kirk to command, is irrevocably altered from HIS perspective since he is in a particular alternate reality that makes access to the one he left no longer possible because that future, for him, is gone, while on some other plain, it may still exist.

In any case, what I'm really asking is, if Spock (and who would know if not him) understands these ideas about parallel universes, it seems that he is making the right decision to stay and try to establish a Vulcan colony rather than tamper even more in time-travel to try to save it. Because he is aware that doing so would only help the Vulcans in one out of a countless number of parallel universes and one can reasonably only do his best in the one he finds himself in.
 
How old is spock at this point? Would he have to see his father die of... what was it called, Bendii Syndrome? I know he is pretty old at this point, but I am not sure just how old. But think of what else he could do if he chose to. Warning them about V'Ger, and The Probe. Telling them not to cross the Galactic Barrier. I'd be interested to know whats on his mind at this point. In many ways these incedents and others shaped the federation, but if he did warn them many lives would be saved.
 
I also wonder how much and what kind of role Spock Prime would want to play in the development and lives of people he was close to in the original timeline. Focusing on rebuilding a Vulcan home and culture seems to be his intent, but how much influence does he want or plan to wield in his new life there?
 
The problem with all the "This is only a new timeline...the old one is still intact" talk is that previous Trek says that's not how it works and that there IS only one timeline per reality, and that time travel can CHANGE history, buit it doesn't create a whole new universe.

If we were to talk the "new timeline started" point of view, then back in "City on the Edge of Forever", the crew of the Enterprise never got home. The Star Trek universe we knew up to that point suddenly lost its Kirk, Spock, Uhura, etc., and has been without them since then.

That's not what the Guardian said happened, tho'. He told them the past had been changed and could be restored if they went after McCoy and undid whatever changes he caused.

The Mirror universe shows that there can be alternate realities in the Trek storyline, but those don't result from time travel. They simply co-exist alongside each other.

Going on the evidence in CITY and what the Guardian said (and he supposedly knew about all this stuff.... :D), I'd have to say that what we're seeing this weekend is one of two things-

1) The Trek universe we've known since the 1960s has just been altered and is now in the process of being overwritten, and everything is up for grabs. We have no way of knowing if anything in TOS is still going to happen, let alone TNG or anything else in its era. This is now replacing the Trek universe we knew, and no more stories should be told in the old one.

2) This movie didn't take place in the original Trek universe to begin with. Yes, we saw an older Spock who looked like the one we knew, but he's not him. He's just LIKE him, and it's HIS universe that's just been altered. We have no way of knowning HOW different it's going to turn out from his original timeline, since we don't really know what his reality was like to begin with.

You know...

I'm not sure WHICH I want it to be. :(
 
The Worf episode proves there are other realities and universes in Trek, not just one prime universe.

Plus the Mirror Universe and all, just another reality.
 
Please see my post above. Yes, there are other realities in the Trek story, but they co-exist. New ones don't pop up alongside the original when a timeline gets changed. This means the movie is either an alternate reality and was from the start, or the original timeline is now being overwritten.
 
A paradox-Say Spock Prime tells the Federation about the supernova and the destruction of Romulus. The Feds decide to help out and Romulus is not destroyed (some of that compassion that Kirk talked about.) So then Nero doesn't go back in time and kill people and the new reality is wiped out and replace by the old one. And so it makes a loop between the new and old realities.

Or now that Spock Prime is no longer marooned, he can get a starship, slingshot around a star travel in time, and save Vulcan. Or is he content to just let his people die when he knows of a way to save them?
 
The problem with all the "This is only a new timeline...the old one is still intact" talk is that previous Trek says that's not how it works and that there IS only one timeline per reality, and that time travel can CHANGE history, buit it doesn't create a whole new universe.

If we were to talk the "new timeline started" point of view, then back in "City on the Edge of Forever", the crew of the Enterprise never got home. The Star Trek universe we knew up to that point suddenly lost its Kirk, Spock, Uhura, etc., and has been without them since then.

That's not what the Guardian said happened, tho'. He told them the past had been changed and could be restored if they went after McCoy and undid whatever changes he caused.

The Mirror universe shows that there can be alternate realities in the Trek storyline, but those don't result from time travel. They simply co-exist alongside each other.

Going on the evidence in CITY and what the Guardian said (and he supposedly knew about all this stuff.... :D), I'd have to say that what we're seeing this weekend is one of two things-

1) The Trek universe we've known since the 1960s has just been altered and is now in the process of being overwritten, and everything is up for grabs. We have no way of knowing if anything in TOS is still going to happen, let alone TNG or anything else in its era. This is now replacing the Trek universe we knew, and no more stories should be told in the old one.

2) This movie didn't take place in the original Trek universe to begin with. Yes, we saw an older Spock who looked like the one we knew, but he's not him. He's just LIKE him, and it's HIS universe that's just been altered. We have no way of knowning HOW different it's going to turn out from his original timeline, since we don't really know what his reality was like to begin with.

You know...

I'm not sure WHICH I want it to be. :(


atually he said their past had been changed..
GUARDIAN: Your vessel, your beginning, all that you knew is gone.
it was kirk who assumed that all history had been changed.

and really the reset then wasnt perfect considering the death of the vagrant.
just like the reset wasnt perfect when spock had to go back in time to save himself.

now what was interesting here is that in past trek when one went back in time using go around the sun method normally time was very resistant to change .. what you did seemed to blend into the time line to be.

but it may be that going through an actual singularity things are more like the guardian.. it is pretty easy to affect a massive change on your time line.
 
Well, it depends on how you want to look at it. I mean, look at the three major DS9 time travel episodes... the one where Quark and company goes back to Earth, the one where Sisko and company goes back to earth and that episode where the Defiant supposedly crashed.

I think each of those sort of imply that there's a single reality where characters are aware of changes to the timeline within their own reality. It doesn't necessarily preclude other realities, it just means that means that we've all been shown one specific reality.

That said, there should also be a large crater where Florida used to be as a result of the Temporal Cold War. This is the first "new" Star Trek text that takes place after Enterprise (not including the series finale) and I don't think they referenced the whole Xindi incident in any way. Did that create a new reality? Or is Florida still destroyed even in this so-called forked reality?

Oh, and I actually forgot what I was going to post. The last Stargate movie (Continuum I think) tried to address this very issue and "our heroes" weren't allowed to restore the timeline because of the consequences it would have on the current reality. Of course, being Stargate they really didn't try to push the concept in any meaningful way.

Really, the easiest way to make the stakes for "restoring the timeline" higher than the typical Trek is if Spock got married and had children - whether with Uhura or someone else. I imagine wiping out his family in order to restore Vulcan would be the greatest test of the "needs of the many" theory that he stuck by in ST2. And even if you don't consider it an arbitrary thought experiment, he would essentially have to decide on the life of his mother or his theoretical family.
 
^ florida wasn't destroyed, just a long canyon was cut out going down the state, a single beam making a straight line down the state, the state was still there, they had a scene with people looking out over the canyon
 
^ florida wasn't destroyed, just a long canyon was cut out going down the state, a single beam making a straight line down the state, the state was still there, they had a scene with people looking out over the canyon

Yeah, I know. I just didn't want to think about it too much. :lol:
But, I guess the point still remains. I mean, I guess there was enough time for them to repair that damage between Enterprise and the TOS era, but unless someone actually says something, it's not clear whether or not the voyages of Captain Archer took place in this new reality.
 
Trek does talk about alternate timelines branching off. Look at the Yesterdays Enterprise episode.

Enterprise C gets thrown into the future, altering the timeline. Tasha Yar is alive, but is supposed to be dead.

Enterprise C goes back, with Tasha Yar. Timeline is restored.

Now if there is only one timeline, and the Enterprise C goes back and fixes it, then the Tasha Yar that went with them should have vanished in thin air because she would have died on the planet where Armus was trapped.
 
maybe all of our theories exist, let that blow your mind
Well, from what I remember in high school, our teacher liked to try more advanced stuff on us. He talked about quantum physics and mechanics, and iirc, on that level all possible outcomes can exist simultaneously, and often do.
 
The problem with all the "This is only a new timeline...the old one is still intact" talk is that previous Trek says that's not how it works and that there IS only one timeline per reality, and that time travel can CHANGE history, buit it doesn't create a whole new universe.

If we were to talk the "new timeline started" point of view, then back in "City on the Edge of Forever", the crew of the Enterprise never got home. The Star Trek universe we knew up to that point suddenly lost its Kirk, Spock, Uhura, etc., and has been without them since then.

That's not what the Guardian said happened, tho'. He told them the past had been changed and could be restored if they went after McCoy and undid whatever changes he caused.

The Mirror universe shows that there can be alternate realities in the Trek storyline, but those don't result from time travel. They simply co-exist alongside each other.

Going on the evidence in CITY and what the Guardian said (and he supposedly knew about all this stuff.... :D), I'd have to say that what we're seeing this weekend is one of two things-

1) The Trek universe we've known since the 1960s has just been altered and is now in the process of being overwritten, and everything is up for grabs. We have no way of knowing if anything in TOS is still going to happen, let alone TNG or anything else in its era. This is now replacing the Trek universe we knew, and no more stories should be told in the old one.

2) This movie didn't take place in the original Trek universe to begin with. Yes, we saw an older Spock who looked like the one we knew, but he's not him. He's just LIKE him, and it's HIS universe that's just been altered. We have no way of knowning HOW different it's going to turn out from his original timeline, since we don't really know what his reality was like to begin with.

You know...

I'm not sure WHICH I want it to be. :(

I like number two - and would point out that the Guardian was dealing with one time line and it's repair. In fact, I wrote a story once that dealt with a split time line that occurs because Kirk saved Keeler. The guardian may well exist in each time line - some have put it in the Mirror universe. We know Spock talks about AU's several episodes of TOS. And, the SF answers to different both AU and differing timelines have usually involved similar people making different decisions. How else would they occur?

Therefore, to me it makes sense that Nero and Spock Prime landed in a timeline that was similar to the one they left, but clearly not the same. Those differences are compiled from may different decisions made by many real people in the past. Sarek and Amanada look different - therefore I would presume different DNA. Seeing this as an AU from before their arrival I can embrace the differences while knowing it's not TOS Prime.
 
At the end of Countdown we have the Enterprise-E sitting there with nothing apparently changed after Nero and Spock have gone into the black hole. Could the black hole may have sent them back in time in a way that preserved the existing reality unlike happened during other time travel events in Trek's past (Guardian of Forever, First Contact/Borgified Earth, etc).

I'm not sure. Overall I'm thrilled with the device the movie used but if you dig into it it raises curious issues about time travel, parallel universes, and I wondered what Spock especially would do and think in this situation.

I also like the notion that there are parallel universes but when one time travels one is working on some sort of personal prime timeline, similar to the Back to the Future mythos. So, in this movie Nero and Spock did go back and it created an alternate reality like the one Biff created when he went back and gave his past self the sports almanac and Spock did his best to set things right. And the Trek we all used to know occurred before that change and we as fans of science fiction can still enjoy all that came before while now we're in a new world of Star Trek.
 
I mean, I guess there was enough time for them to repair that damage between Enterprise and the TOS era, but unless someone actually says something, it's not clear whether or not the voyages of Captain Archer took place in this new reality.
The movie makes pretty clear that yes, Archer's voyages took place.
 
Still looking for thoughts on what Old Spock's understanding of his situation is and if this is why he decides to work to preserve Vulcan culture and establish a Vulcan colony rather than time travel forward or backward again.
 
I think it's clear that the intention of previous stories was to depict a single timeline that can be changed, altered and restored by the actions of the time travelers. I think it's also clear that the intention of this particular story was that a new timeline and new reality was created that now exists separate from the first and did not alter or wipe away the reality we all know as Star Trek.

So why can't both be right? Why can't it be that most methods of time travel we've seen on Star Trek, such as the Guardian of Forever or the slingshot method, move the traveler back and forth in their own timeline, but that this particular unique method -- moving through time due to a singularity created by 'red matter' -- is a quite different matter and does create an alternate timeline? That seems to me to make the most sense and allows all the various time travel stories to exist in the way they were intended. It also allows the new Trek universe to move forward without destroying everything we know of Trek.

And it could also explain why Spock can't simply time travel again to get 'back home.' Any standard time travel method he could easily employ would simply move him to a different point in this new timeline he's in. Without the advanced technology on the ships which were destroyed and the availability of red matter -- which could, for all we know, be really rare -- then he can't travel between the realities.
 
You could always view it like how it's explained in Farscape: That there are a few 'primary realities', which are timelines, but which are differing and important enough to be 'real'. And that there are a multitude of 'potential realities', made by differing choices, which fade away after time.

Sort of like a universal cleaning robot. :D
 
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