Medical Treatment in the late 23rd Century

[James Wright]

How far had medical treatment advanced from the time of Enterprise in the mid 22nd century to TOS in the late 23rd century?
The reason I ask is because McCoy appeared not to know a whole lot about Vulcan physiology in "The Journey to Babel".
Doctor Phlox "probably" knew more about Vulcans.

James

 

[Mytran]

Maybe McCoy didn't know, but he's never claimed to more than just "an old country doctor".

Doctor M'Benga on the other hand (who appeared in A Private Little War) had no such lacking in expertise.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Inconsistant writing. I find it impossible to believe McCoy wouldn't know a thing about Klingon physiology in STVI.

But also remember that Phlox wasn't a Starfleet-trained doctor like McCoy, but part of the Inter-Species Medical Exchange.

 

[James Wright]

At the time of the episode mentioned how long had earth and Vulcan been on friendly terms? Surely the two races who share medical information or at least swap medical journals and learn about the inner workings of each other just in case one race or the other didn't have a doctor close by!

James

 

[Warped9]

How far had medical treatment advanced from the time of Enterprise in the mid 22nd century to TOS in the late 23rd century?
The reason I ask is because McCoy appeared not to know a whole lot about Vulcan physiology in "The Journey to Babel".
Doctor Phlox "probably" knew more about Vulcans.

James

Simple. ENT was a retcon of pre TOS history just to show us "how it all really started."

Even simpler. ENT producers and writers simply ignored most of what TOS established. This is the kindest thing I have to say about this.

 

[Timo]

It's not ENT that is at fault here, but TOS, and always was.

Although TOS sort of covers its bases by establishing in "Amok Time" that while Vulcans are nominally allies, they are a secretive bunch who do not share key medical information even when the secrecy may cost lives. Indeed, "Dagger of the Mind" already showed Spock hiding key information from his coworkers and superiors (the entire mind meld thing), and as late as "Operation: Annihilate!" he apparently still had a secret or two up his sleeves or behind his eyelids.

STVI isn't particularly implausible in maintaining that our heroes don't know much about the Klingons; the soldiers of the United States knew relatively little about their Soviet counterparts during the cold war as well, and it would have been rather exceptional to find an officer with a working knowledge of the Russian language. The gulf between Feds and Klingons should have been broader if anything, and an alien species could well remain alien from the inside even if McCoy's colleagues occasionally had the opportunity to cut open an enemy corpse.

Medical knowledge probably keeps on advancing in the Trek universe. But it's already far beyond the comprehension of any single person today: in order to be good at something, McCoy would have to choose to be phenomenally ignorant at something else, or his brain would just go pop. The ability to operate on a Klingon would depend solely on the capabilities of the computerized expert systems McCoy would be working with. Or not working with, in this particular movie where he was separated from most of his gear. Indeed, STVI is one of the more plausible Trek treatments of "cold war in space", what with the realistic racism, the occasional weird they-don't-have-tear-ducts revelation, the blurred lines of enmity, and the fundamental failure to understand the opposition.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

It's not ENT that is at fault here, but TOS, and always was.

Timo Saloniemi

Sorry, but there you're wrong. TOS established things the way they wanted to. It's then up to any followups to build on that lead. If the sequel/prequel doesn't then it's hardly the fault of TOS' creators but the laziness and/or ignorance of the sequel's creative staff.

 

[Timo]

We're not talking about an inconsistency between TOS and ENT at all. We're talking about TOS claiming things that make no sense against its own backstory - namely, that Vulcan medical facts are unknown to their close allies, the humans.

We can claim that this is science fiction and therefore doesn't need to make any sense - there could be quite literally worlds of key facts unknown to us. But it still looks really silly in "Amok Time", "Journey to Babel", "Operation: Annihilate!" and to a degree in "Dagger of the Mind".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

... namely, that Vulcan medical facts are unknown to their close allies, the humans.

Except TOS never claim that Earth and Vulcan are particularly close, even if allies. Journey to Babel shows that the various members of the Federation are far from close to each other.

But it still looks really silly in "Amok Time", "Journey to Babel", "Operation: Annihilate!" and to a degree in "Dagger of the Mind".

Both Amok Time and Dagger of the Mind involved aspect of Vulcans that they found deeply personal. Enterprise revealed that in the 22nd century, the ability to mind meld was a dirty little secret, and a social taboo. A hundred years later, that might not have changed in Vulcan society.

And why would the ability to mind meld be considered "medical information" anyway?

Similar with the events of Amok Time, this was a closeted cultural aspect of the Vulcans that they wouldn't have wanted put into a public database. While Spock likely isn't the only Vulcan in Starfleet, his presence on a mostly Human ship might still have been a rarity. If serving aboard say the Intrepid, his "amok'ness" wouldn't have been a problem, and space fairing Vulcans probably have a quiet internal policy to deal with this when it arises.

In the case of Journey to Babel, McCoy had enough information on Vulcan anatomy to perform a purely medical procedure like a heart operation on Sarek, there was nothing cultural about that.

With Operation: Annihilate!, I figure what actually happen was that the "inner eyelid" muscle closed hysterically, and locked shut, effectively blinding Spock. In time these muscles naturally relaxed. This was a unusual event and wasn't in the purely medical database that McCoy did have available to him.

In all honesty, regardless of Spock's species/mixed species, McCoy should have seen the problem when he examined Spock's eyes.

 

[Timo]

Except TOS never claim that Earth and Vulcan are particularly close, even if allies.

It still is rather extraordinary to think that anybody in the general "ally" category would withhold medical information to the extent shown, when the alliance is an interspecies one. No such thing exists on Earth, of course - so our closest analogy would probably be the United States and West Germany being allies, but West Germany steadfastly refusing to tell the US how the verbs in German are inflected, what the gauge of the local railroads is, and where Düsseldorf lies.

Both Amok Time and Dagger of the Mind involved aspect of Vulcans that they found deeply personal.

The exact motivations for hiding the information are irrelevant to the plausibility to the act, really. Humans would do no such thing under any circumstances. So we're to rely on the concept of Vulcans being alien - which is the saving grace of "Amok Time", really. The episode would be merely embarrassing if we didn't have the chance to enjoy the idea of Spock being a salmon!

And why would the ability to mind meld be considered "medical information" anyway?

...This is why I inserted "to some extent" in my comment on this episode. Although neglecting to tell Starfleet about the ability makes Spock guilty of holding back tactically and perhaps juridically crucial information, even if its medical significance is low.

Lying about the medical reasons behind "Amok Time" is lying about a life-endangering medical condition, though, and cannot be excused except by referring to the fundamentally alien nature of the Vulcans.

Which is good.

But only if we accept that TOS aimed to be good science fiction. Which is giving it way too much credit, really.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TOSalltheway]

Dr. MBENGA interned in a Vulcan hospital. Naturally he would have more experience with Vulcans.

 

[Bob Karo]

I took some of McCoy's statements about being "just an old country doctor" to be him being hard on himself. He apparently did just fine working on Vulcans and other assorted species and was a respected expert in his field.

Vulcans of the time seemed to be pretty secretive of a lot things. Even preferring to serve on their own segregated vessels.

 

[Timo]

...Although the jury is still out on whether they served in Starfleet at all, at the time. The only Vulcan vessel we heard of in TOS was the Intrepid, in "Immunity Syndrome", and she was never referred to as a Starfleet vessel.

Yet even McCoy knew that this ship was "manned by Vulcans", which would not only be odd knowledge about a Vulcan ship by a non-Vulcan, but also an odd way of putting it. And the Intrepid definitely was "another starship" and had capabilities closely comparable to Kirk's ship etc. etc. So most probably Starfleet did have at least 400 full Vulcans serving, and refusing to reveal key medical knowledge. Until that date, that is.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Garrovick]

In "Journey to Babel", McCoy did state that he had familiarity with Vulcans - studied the tapes, knew where the organs are, etc., he just simply didn't have any direct surgical experience. So it's not really a case of the knowledge of Vulcans being unavailable, but studying something in a book is a much different thing than actual experience. It's too bad M'Benga apparently wasn't available for the surgery on Sarek. By all rights he should have been around since "Journey to Babel" was made just before "A Private Little War" (although I'm honestly not sure which was actually aired first), but I suppose that's TV for ya.

As far as the Pon Farr thing goes, there may have been other humans in Starfleet that would have been aware of it, but they kept silent about it out of consideration of Vulcan sensibilities. After all, Kirk and McCoy didn't discuss it with anyone else, and it doesn't seem to have become common knowledge later (judging by David Marcus' confusion in ST III), so it may have just been kept on a need-to-know basis and not in the formal computer information. Spock probably should have not waited so long to take leave until he finally started throwing soup bowls around, but I got the impression he hadn't dealt with it before ("I hoped I would be spared this") and he may have tried too long to just get through it on his own. If he'd just taken leave early and headed home before the Enterprise got committed to another mission, things might have worked out and Spock would have returned to the Enterprise with no one the wiser - although given the stunt T'Pring pulled, it's probably just as well he didn't.

 

[REDrake]

Interspecies knowledge might have been a problem, but apparently there were medicine available that allowed human organs to grow out of thin air.

 

[Mytran]

And in an easy to swallow pill format, too!

 

[Timo]

By all rights he should have been around since "Journey to Babel" was made just before "A Private Little War" (although I'm honestly not sure which was actually aired first), but I suppose that's TV for ya.

FWIW, stardate order places "Journey to Babel" first, by some 370 stardate units. Perhaps M'Benga only came aboard during that interval. Indeed, the second episode to fall in that slot per stardate order, "Doomsday Machine", ended with the ship facing some downtime at a starbase for all the damage she took.

It might well be that with apparently very few Vulcans in Starfleet, and the only known others besides Spock enjoying the care of a Vulcan CMO of their own, Vulcan-qualified doctors were a scarce resource and seldom embarked on any vessels; M'Benga might have been jumping on and off on a hectic schedule if individuals other than Spock happened to serve, or otherwise fell under the Starfleet medical responsibility.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Garrovick]

By all rights he should have been around since "Journey to Babel" was made just before "A Private Little War" (although I'm honestly not sure which was actually aired first), but I suppose that's TV for ya.

FWIW, stardate order places "Journey to Babel" first, by some 370 stardate units. Perhaps M'Benga only came aboard during that interval. Indeed, the second episode to fall in that slot per stardate order, "Doomsday Machine", ended with the ship facing some downtime at a starbase for all the damage she took.

It might well be that with apparently very few Vulcans in Starfleet, and the only known others besides Spock enjoying the care of a Vulcan CMO of their own, Vulcan-qualified doctors were a scarce resource and seldom embarked on any vessels; M'Benga might have been jumping on and off on a hectic schedule if individuals other than Spock happened to serve, or otherwise fell under the Starfleet medical responsibility.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, that is certainly possible - it could be that M'Benga came aboard just before "A Private Little War", left the ship again, and then returned sometime around "That Which Survives". Otherwise, if he had been aboard during the intervening period, it seems like he'd have had at least some involvement in "Spock's Brain" - not to say he might not have had some off-camera input into Spock's care, but he certainly didn't appear in that episode. And also the fact that no one seemed to be aware of Spock's inner eyelid in "Operation-Annihilate!" argues that M'Benga wasn't aboard at that time. So I do think that he was indeed new to the ship at the time of "A Private Little War" - it's just lucky for Spock that M'Benga came aboard just in time for him to get shot.

 

[Doug Otte]

Interspecies knowledge might have been a problem, but apparently there were medicine available that allowed human organs to grow out of thin air.

In which episode was this mentioned?

Canon Officer #6 Doug

 

[Timo]

In the movie ST: The Voyage Home, to be exact.

(You... are number six? Or, you are... number six?)

Timo Saloniemi