Loss of 1/4 of the TARDIS in Castrovalva?

[Robert D. Robot]

I was thinking- if the TARDIS is alive and sentient in a manner of sorts, what do you think was the nature of what was lost as a consequence of jettisoning part of the TARDIS's internal structure in the episode Castrovalva (in order to escape falling into Event One).

Does sentience/organic components permeate all of the TARDIS? Or does the sentience reside only in the heart of the ship? Do living, but non-sentient elements run throughout the entire TARDIS?

Could jettisoning those particular selected areas be something like the loss of a "molt" by a lobster, ie., loss of structures that grew organically, but are no longer living, so the loss would not cause "harm" or "pain" to the TARDIS.

...Or maybe those areas were "alive"at the time, but this incident was a bit like how some reptiles can actually detach and leave their living, wriggling tail as a strategy to distract predators.

I trust that the TARDIS did not lose part of its conscious being.

I know that this is probably an odd sort of question and suspect that there is no established answer or well-defined concept out there, but it would be interesting to hear if anyone has any thoughts they'd like to offer on the subject (or if anything addressing this concept had appeared in the literature or episodes that I missed).

 

[Captain Pike]

Personally, I think all this 'living TARDIS' bs came about from the newer writers mis-interpreting the earlier doctors habit of anthropomorphisizing the TARDIS in the same way people often do with machinery - referring to it in the feminine.

Now I accept that it's more than just a machine, and it clearly does have some kind of sentience, but the 'TARDIS' are organic' meme is a relatively new invention.

As for the jettisoning in Castrovalva I doubt it was anywhere near 1/4 - it was just mentioned as a 'fraction' IIRC. Was probably more like a billionth, and I get the impression it had little to no effect on 'the old girl'.

If you do buy into the organic TARDIS stuff (and even if you don't) who is to say that the information from the whole isn't stored inside every element? Like holographic data storage, or the doctor rebuilding the entire universe by extrapolation of a few particles (itself a reference to the brownian motion finite probability generator experiments precipitating the discovery of the infinite improbability drive in HHG) or, like, you know, DNA inside living cells - the TARDIS could likely rebuild itself.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

^ I appreciate hearing your thoughts, Captain Pike. I confess that it had been a while since I have seen episodes from the original series, so IMO you could be right that the Doctor was simply showing his fondness for the TARDIS by anthropomorphisizing "her".

I kind of like the idea that we don't really know. Keeps the mystery there, and I actually prefer that we aren't told in black and white terms. It is interesting to hear people's ideas here, though.

 

[Venardhi]

It was definitely a significant portion, at least 10%, that was actually the second ever episode I watched. It was enough that the layout of the interior was significantly restructured and notable rooms were missing.

 

[Bacl]

The TARDIS does not operate on any level of awareness that we as humans have (or can imagine). It is a machine built by the (supposed) greatest of all races, and as such it exceeds the simple definitions of technology. The Doctor too exceeds the definition of the Time Lords, and his connection and experiences with the TARDIS make it what it is.

Think of it this way: amazing historic sites feel "alive" and "more than real" don't they? But they aren't, that sensation is one we imbue them.

Now imagine that if that is the way we simple humans operate, what about someone like the Doctor taking a machine like the TARDIS? Is it alive? In a sense...a sense beyond or perhaps 'above' our definition. Does it think "I am the TARDIS. I wonder where the Doctor will want to go next?" No, not really. It is more like how a person in your dreams seem real. They think, they feel, they interact. Then the dream ends...but not for the Doctor. For the Doctor, in the TARDIS, the dream goes on and on.

Next stop: Everywhere.

 

[Bacl]

Or, in other words: The TARDIS is not just a big giant whale that the Doctor lives inside of.

That's Farscape.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Thanks, Venardhi! And thanks for your posts, Bacl.... I see what you are saying, and I tend to agree. Although I did not think that the TARDIS quite existed with the level of consciousness of a Leviathan or the "Tin Man" species from ST: The Next Generation, I know that I have not seen every televised adventure and may have missed something.

I have the idea (perhaps incorrectly) that some of the literature/novels may make more of the TARDIS's consciousness, but this is a realm that I have not explored at all (at least so far) (I probably will try to fill in my gaps in the televised episodes first...).

 

[Snick27]

Or, in other words: The TARDIS is not just a big giant whale that the Doctor lives inside of.

That's Farscape.

Moya is not a dam Whale! lol! How dare You and Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

 

[Captain Pike]

Hey it was 25% (just took a peek at the script), you were right about that Robert..

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Yes- whether you are traveling this week by planes, trains, or automobiles (or TARDIS, Leviathan, or giant whale), Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

 

[Blamo]

I think TARDIS's were never designed to be sapient, but due to their complexity some developed a character. The Doctor's TARDIS more so because of it's travels and age. What level it's sapience is on though is questionable. It could be only semi-sentient, or it could have the mind of a god, taking the Doctor on detours to places he's needed.

As for being grown, I don't think the new series meant it to be that organic. All the equipment we see is electronic. Perhaps it's some sophitiscated validium (the living metal from Silver Nemesis) combined with some Matrix like "magic" (like Block Transfer Computations) which allows matter to be created from pure mathematics.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

^ Cool ideas, Blamo! I see what you mean about "growth" possibly being of a non-organic nature... Guess I got some reference to coral growing (from Captain Jack?) stuck in my head from somewhere.

 

[Skellington]

What level it's sapience is on though is questionable. It could be only semi-sentient, or it could have the mind of a god, taking the Doctor on detours to places he's needed.

It's ofttimes been described as semi-sentient, but that seems to imply that, say, human-level sentience has a "1.0" value and that it's just a question of being smarter or less smart. Personally, I much favour the "mind of a god" idea. It can read its crew's minds pretty quickly (suggesting that its crew's minds are a trivial thing) and it can scan everything within a thousand-mile radius in twelve dimensions in a tiny fraction of a second. I like to think that its awareness and cognitive processes are different on a very fundamental level to us mere biological entities. Its mind, if it can be called such, probably has no biological antecendents. I like to think that the TARDIS' mentality is not constrained by the arrow of time experienced by three-dimensional beings. It always seems to know where to land in order to provide the maximum level of adventure. I like to think that not only can it scan ahead while travelling and detect interesting events as "bumps" in the timeline, but that it can even effectively communicate with past and future versions of itself, if the concept of a personal past and future for the TARDIS even has any meaning. Its "present moment" may be distributed along the subjective timeline experienced by the crew, or its internal memory may be dimensionally transcendental in a temporal rather than spatial sense; ie from its perspective the timeline of the crew is an open book that it sees all at once and can make the occasional change to.

Alternatively, it's a glorified BBC Micro and the Doctor is nuts.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

^ Now this is a pretty interesting concept to consider, Scrawny71! As Blamo offered, too, perhaps there's much more to the TARDIS than even the Doctor realizes, but this particular Type 40 (well, I guess the ONLY remaining Type 40) is keeping mum on the subject....

 

[Skellington]

^ Well, we now know that at least part of the TARDIS is listening to what the crew, or at least the Doctor, is saying. Maybe it could talk but can't be bothered; or no-one would understand what it was trying to communicate.

 

[Orcus]

Most humans are sentient. It is possible for a human to jettison a good deal of itself in the form of haircuts, nail clippings, exfoliation - even liposuction. None of these activities need have any long-term ill effects on that human's functions...

 

[Robert D. Robot]

^ Indeed. My initial thought, however, was that since the loss of of the mass of the TARDIS was so great (about 25% of its structure), it might be more like the loss of a leg to a human. Kind of hard to make such an odd analogy, I realize, to a "machine" like the TARDIS.

Maybe the event in Castrovalva was analogous to the TARDIS getting a REALLY BAD haircut!.... (So bad that it did not even want to be seen in public by any other TARDISes...)

I appreciate hearing everyone's ideas, thanks!

 

[Mitty]

Most humans are sentient.

LOL, most?