Literary question about "A Time to Die"

[Star Treks]

Although I understand that the term has been around for a while, I never really had heard of a "Mary Sue" character until recently. I'm still not sure I completely understand the term, so let me ask: for those of you who have read "A Time to Die", does Colleen Cabot qualify as something of a Mary Sue character? Because this is the first time I've read a book and thought, 'maybe this is what they mean'.

For that matter, Wesley Crusher in this book almost seems to fit the description, as well. Or am I way off?

 

[captcalhoun]

unless John Vornholt's got a thing for Wesley, hell no!

 

[OmahaStar]

unless John Vornholt's got a thing for Wesley, hell no!

Who doesn't?

 

[LightningStorm]

Although I understand that the term has been around for a while, I never really had heard of a "Mary Sue" character until recently. I'm still not sure I completely understand the term, so let me ask: for those of you who have read "A Time to Die", does Colleen Cabot qualify as something of a Mary Sue character? Because this is the first time I've read a book and thought, 'maybe this is what they mean'.

For that matter, Wesley Crusher in this book almost seems to fit the description, as well. Or am I way off?

I don't claim to be exactly clear on the term 'Mary Sue' either. But from what I have heard many people consider Wesley in many episodes of the show to be a Mary Sue character.

As for Cabot,

Spoiler: A Time to Die and Colleen Cabot

Didn't she die in that book?

I don't think Mary Sue characters have this happen to them.

This seems a good definition for Mary Sue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

 

[Christopher]

A Mary Sue is basically an idealized author surrogate, a wish-fulfillment character who takes over the story. It can be legitimately argued that Wesley Crusher was a Mary Sue (or "Marty Stu") for Gene Roddenberry (whose middle name was Wesley). But I don't think that's a fair description of his role in ATTBB/ATTD. He's a member of the ensemble, so he's perfectly entitled to have a story that focuses on him.

As for Cabot, I don't think she fits the definition either, since she didn't take over the story and single-handedly save the day. She was just a featured guest star.

 

[RookieBatman]

The way I understand Mary Sue is that it's an original character introduced into a work of licensed fiction, or more commonly fanfiction, where the original character proves more capable (to the point of absurdity) than the regular characters from the series. The Mary Sue character is sometimes meant to be a sort of avatar for the author, as if they were inserting themselves into the story so that they could save the day.
I think that the books "Battlestations!" and "Dreadnought" by Diane Carey have a prominent Mary Sue in them, but I haven't read those either, so I'm not sure.

ETA: Written at the same time as Christopher's post.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Although I understand that the term has been around for a while, I never really had heard of a "Mary Sue" character until recently.

If you'd read a lot of ST fan fiction in the 70s, you'd certainly have met many Mary Sues. It's essentially where the (usually female) author adds a new character into the mix, to save the day while absolutely wowing everyone, and having the captain (or/and Spock) fall in love with them to boot. Coincidentally (or not) this new character is often a very glamorous extension of the fanfic's author. (Conversely, in the 70s, much fanfic written by males was very tech heavy.) For many adult fans writing ST fanfic was their first attempts at writing fictional narratives since school, and I guess they tended to fall into the same cliches of first-time writers.

With teen genius Wesley Crusher named for Eugene Wesley Roddenberry, and described by Roddenberry as an extension/representation of himself at that age, and managing to out-think the main crew a few times, you can see why many fans saw the character (in the TNG TV series) as almost fitting the male equivalent of the "Mary Sue" persona.

Many fans reacted really badly to the Colleen Cabot character but I really liked her, and was surprised with the way that duology turned out for her. I don't see that she's an extension/representation of author John Vornholt, though!

 

[Star Treks]

I will respectfully say that I didn't particularly care for her character, and I found the Cabot/Wesley relationship very silly in the story. I'm sorry, but I don't want to read about Wesley "tearfully nuzzling" someone, saying "I Love You" and then

Spoiler: Cabot

screaming NOOOOOOO when she is shot

.

I guess the 'Mary Sue' aspect that stuck out for me was that, yes, Cabot was a featured guest character, and especially how towards the end she seems to be way too capable (when she's on the Androssi ship for example). That, and she's "something else" and instantly intriguing to most of the other characters she encounters (albeit not always in a good way, initially).

As for Wesley, well

Spoiler: Wonderboy

yeah he really does save the day, he has all his magic Traveler powers, gets laid, etc. etc. - sounds like wish fulfillment to me

even if he's not necessarily an "extension" of Vornholt. Maybe it's just that Wesley seems so naturally to be a Mary Sue type of character, but Vornholt certainly didn't shy away from exploiting some of the Wesley story cliches.

But I think I am beginning to understand this term better, now.

And, no, I have never read any Trek fan fiction.

 

[Smiley]

I always read it as being an exploration of the life of a Traveler. Having amazing abilities is an integral part of that.

 

[Christopher]

I think that the books "Battlestations!" and "Dreadnought" by Diane Carey have a prominent Mary Sue in them, but I haven't read those either, so I'm not sure.

We've just been discussing that in the "Your least favorite Trek book" thread (starting around post #75). Piper is an author surrogate, but doesn't really qualify as a Mary Sue for reasons spelled out in that thread.

I guess the 'Mary Sue' aspect that stuck out for me was that, yes, Cabot was a featured guest character, and especially how towards the end she seems to be way too capable (when she's on the Androssi ship for example). That, and she's "something else" and instantly intriguing to most of the other characters she encounters (albeit not always in a good way, initially).

If you have fudge and qualify the definition like that to fit a given character, then that character probably isn't a Mary Sue. Too many people use the term simply to mean "a character I didn't like," regardless of its genuine meaning.

Maybe it's just that Wesley seems so naturally to be a Mary Sue type of character, but Vornholt certainly didn't shy away from exploiting some of the Wesley story cliches.

I don't think that's fair. The series established that Wesley evolved beyond human form to become a Traveler. It would be absurd to bring such a character back and not have him manifest exceptional abilities.

You can't just cherrypick the aspects of the definition that suit you and say "Yes, this is a Mary Sue," because any individual aspect of the definition can also apply to non-MS characters. And even if the author who created a character did so in a Mary-Suish way, that doesn't mean that every subsequent author who works with the character is using him/her as a Mary Sue.

 

[Trent Roman]

I don't think either character fit that particular pitfall. Wesley was often portrayed as indecisive, unclear as to whether his responsibilities lay with his old friends or his new life as a traveler, and--a particular obvious failing--is incapable of saving the woman he loves from dying. True, the half-assed happy ending spoils the character conflict that had been the motivating force, but I'm of the opinion that the book line dropped the ball when it comes to Wesley generally.

As for Cabot, I remember strongly disliking the character, and part of that was her smarmy, self-certain attitude towards Picard particularly. So despite an eventual gesture of redemption after the tacky romance, she certainly doesn't fit the Mary Sue stereotype insofar as she spends a good deal of time in conflict with the heroes and is otherwise pretty flawed in a number of respects. I do agree that she's not much of a character, though; a self-righteous bitch who has a totally unbelievable (and unprofessional) change of heart after becoming infatuated like a schoolgirl. Cabot was my most disliked Lit-only character until dethroned by that bloody ditz of a counselor from the VOY-R (whom I hope will suffer a gruesome and prolonged death in Full Circle).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[trampledamage]

And, no, I have never read any Trek fan fiction.

Just want to add as an aside, that not all fan fiction is author wishful-thinking and full of Mary-Sue characters. Some of it's really good - and a lot of that is down in the fan fiction forum here on the TrekBBS


okay, advert break over, back to your regularly scheduled programming

 

[Star Treks]

I think that the books "Battlestations!" and "Dreadnought" by Diane Carey have a prominent Mary Sue in them, but I haven't read those either, so I'm not sure.

We've just been discussing that in the "Your least favorite Trek book" thread (starting around post #75). Piper is an author surrogate, but doesn't really qualify as a Mary Sue for reasons spelled out in that thread.

I guess the 'Mary Sue' aspect that stuck out for me was that, yes, Cabot was a featured guest character, and especially how towards the end she seems to be way too capable (when she's on the Androssi ship for example). That, and she's "something else" and instantly intriguing to most of the other characters she encounters (albeit not always in a good way, initially).

If you have fudge and qualify the definition like that to fit a given character, then that character probably isn't a Mary Sue. Too many people use the term simply to mean "a character I didn't like," regardless of its genuine meaning.

Maybe it's just that Wesley seems so naturally to be a Mary Sue type of character, but Vornholt certainly didn't shy away from exploiting some of the Wesley story cliches.

I don't think that's fair. The series established that Wesley evolved beyond human form to become a Traveler. It would be absurd to bring such a character back and not have him manifest exceptional abilities.

You can't just cherrypick the aspects of the definition that suit you and say "Yes, this is a Mary Sue," because any individual aspect of the definition can also apply to non-MS characters. And even if the author who created a character did so in a Mary-Suish way, that doesn't mean that every subsequent author who works with the character is using him/her as a Mary Sue.

Alright, alright, no need to get too excited. Like I said, this is a stereotype I've only recently learned about. That's why I started this thread, to figure out what exactly qualifies. I only pointed out the things about the characters that fit the paradigm, I didn't say they were the paradigm.

 

[SiorX]

As for Cabot,

Spoiler

Didn't she die in that book?

I don't think Mary Sue characters have this happen to them.

[/quote]

Actually, that used to be almost a prerequisite of the trope. It happens in Paula Smith's A Trekkie's Tale, which is the parody story which coigned the term. I dunno why, of late, she's suddenly become so much more robust. Might be a knock on effect from shows where nowadays a woman can stick around longer than just the old "love interest of the week" oneshot.

As for Cabot, I remember strongly disliking the character, and part of that was her smarmy, self-certain attitude towards Picard particularly. So despite an eventual gesture of redemption after the tacky romance, she certainly doesn't fit the Mary Sue stereotype insofar as she spends a good deal of time in conflict with the heroes and is otherwise pretty flawed in a number of respects. I do agree that she's not much of a character, though; a self-righteous bitch who has a totally unbelievable (and unprofessional) change of heart after becoming infatuated like a schoolgirl. Cabot was my most disliked Lit-only character until dethroned by that bloody ditz of a counselor from the VOY-R (whom I hope will suffer a gruesome and prolonged death in Full Circle).

Cabot definitely tripped my Sue radar more than a little. There's a lot of meta out there on Mary Sues, and not all of it agrees (obviously), but my experience across a number of fandoms is that the one feature of the Sue most people agree on is that the narrative becomes unrealistically weighted in favour of her, and regular characters sort of fall into orbit around her. She appears when the balance is tipped so that the author and main cast are invested in the character to a degree that the reader can't possibly emulate, having just met her, so suspension of disbelief falls apart.

Personally, I felt some of that with Cabot. It doesn't matter that there was conflict with Picard, so long as the conflict is less about telling a good story and more about keeping the spotlight on the new character - because gosh, isn't she so special and interesting. In Harry Potter fandom, she'd probably match up with the field-spotter's guide description of the "Bitchiwitch" strain of Mary Sue. Or Feisty!Rebel!Sue.

 

[Trent Roman]

In Harry Potter fandom, she'd probably match up with the field-spotter's guide description of the "Bitchiwitch" strain of Mary Sue. Or Feisty!Rebel!Sue.

Seems a number of new subspecies of the strain have been identified since I was last active in fanfic.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[SiorX]

In Harry Potter fandom, she'd probably match up with the field-spotter's guide description of the "Bitchiwitch" strain of Mary Sue. Or Feisty!Rebel!Sue.

Seems a number of new subspecies of the strain have been identified since I was last active in fanfic.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

It's like potato chips

 

[trampledamage]

Except a lot less tasty

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I didn't think of Cabot as a Mary Sue, but at the same time I also didn't *hate* her. There are very few Trek Lit characters I've ever thought of hating, actually. Admiral Nakamura came the closest, out of all the characters in the Be Born/Die duology.

I also really enjoyed that duology very much.

 

[Trent Roman]

Except a lot less tasty

I don't know... Mary Sues are generally pretty if not knock-out gorgeous, have lovely voices, silky smooth skin, smell nice... I bet they taste good, too. This week's project: find Star Trek fanfic with Mary Sue/cannibalism to verify hypothesis.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[trampledamage]

This week's project: find Star Trek fanfic with Mary Sue/cannibalism to verify hypothesis.

I bet you could find it on the internet somewhere too!