Link Between Discovery and a Contentious Element of the Kelvin films

[KBEnterprise]

One of my favorite aspects of Discovery season one is Ash Tyler's arc and the reveal that he is, in fact, a surgically altered Klingon. My first instinct as a fan was to connect the dots between Voq's procedure, the House of Mo'Kai, and Arne Darvin in Trouble With Tribbles, who was later revealed to be a surgically altered Klingon.

However, also as a fan, my mind wandered to one of the more frustrating aspects of Trek continuity, which is the [in my opinion] unfortunate casting of Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan in the Kelvin timeline. Not only did changing Khan's race and overall appearance/identity seem like a slap in the face to the fans, it also simply didn't make sense!

But it seems to reason that, if the Federation was widely aware of the choH'a' procedure, the ne'er-do-wells in that universe's Section 31 could replicate the process on Khan. Sure, this is a different universe where, presumably, the events of Discovery did not happen, but the fact that this process was shown at all leads me to believe that Khan went through a similar procedure.

Having seen Into Darkness since watching Discovery's first season, it does seem to make it a little more bearable to put up with the drastic changes to Khan. I understand some comics have explained this as well, but I haven't read all of those yet.

Did anyone else make the (indirect) connection between the choH'a' and Khan from Into Darkness?

 

[Agony_Boothb]

The what procedure?

Anyway, considering Khan was originally played by a mexican actor, i wasn't too fussed by Khan being played by Cumbersnatch, who was in pretty much every movie that came out in 2013. Also it was a calculated move to have a bankable star to attract people to a movie that they may not have watched otherwise. If i was a movie exec i would have cast Cumbersnatch too.

And to answer your question, no I did not make the link between Khan and cho'cho procedure or whatever it's called.

 

[XCV330]

Not only did changing Khan's race and overall appearance/identity seem like a slap in the face to the fans, it also simply didn't make sense!

What part doesn't make sense? A Mexican actor played a genetically modified man named Khan Noonian Singh. Then a British actor played the same genetically modified man named Khan Noonian Singh. Who'se face exactly is being slapped?

How does this relate to Clem Fandango being both a human and a Klingon? Wait.. are you saying Clem Fandango is Khan? It all makes sense to me now.

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[Agony_Boothb]

What part doesn't make sense? A Mexican actor played a genetically modified man named Khan Noonian Singh. Then a British actor played the same genetically modified man named Khan Noonian Singh. Who'se face exactly is being slapped?

How does this relate to Clem Fandango being both a human and a Klingon? Wait.. are you saying Clem Fandango is Khan? It all makes sense to me now.

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I love Toast of London so much

 

[XCV330]

I love Toast of London so much

"Bridge to security"

"Bridge to security"


"Bridge to security. What the hell is.."

"This is Lt Ash Tyler can you hear me?"

 

[Agony_Boothb]

"Bridge to security"

"Bridge to security"


"Bridge to security. What the hell is.."

"This is Lt Ash Tyler can you hear me?"

I'd love Matt Berry to have a guest role on Discovery, although it might end up like when toast had a guest spot on Dr Who and spent the whole time in a costume. 'Could have been anybody in that fucking mask'

 

[XCV330]

I'd love Matt Berry to have a guest role on Discovery, although it might end up like when toast had a guest spot on Dr Who and spent the whole time in a costume. 'Could have been anybody in that fucking mask'

he can follow the proud footsteps of Mick Fleetwood

who probably isn't Khan. No faces were slapped by Mick Fleetwood.

 

[KBEnterprise]

The what procedure?

Anyway, considering Khan was originally played by a mexican actor, i wasn't too fussed by Khan being played by Cumbersnatch, who was in pretty much every movie that came out in 2013. Also it was a calculated move to have a bankable star to attract people to a movie that they may not have watched otherwise. If i was a movie exec i would have cast Cumbersnatch too.

And to answer your question, no I did not make the link between Khan and cho'cho procedure or whatever it's called.

I got the name of the procedure from Memory Alpha. I'm not sure where the name was mentioned in the show.

And, in regards to the bit of your text in bold - what exactly would your thought process be in looking at Khan in Space Seed and seeing him as Benedict Cumberbatch?

What part doesn't make sense? A Mexican actor played a genetically modified man named Khan Noonian Singh. Then a British actor played the same genetically modified man named Khan Noonian Singh. Who'se face exactly is being slapped?

Well, despite Ricardo Montalbán's ethnicity, TOS made it pretty clear what Khan's ethnicity was. He was an Indian Sikh, and that gave his character some flair which was retained in Wrath of Khan. I don't want to stray too much off topic, but the producers of the film have gone on record saying they purposefully cast someone who looked nothing like an Indian Sikh as Khan...this Discovery connection at least gives that discrepancy a chance to be remedied.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I got the name of the procedure from Memory Alpha. I'm not sure where the name was mentioned in the show.

And, in regards to the bit of your text in bold - what exactly would your thought process be in looking at Khan in Space Seed and seeing him as Benedict Cumberbatch?



Well, despite Ricardo Montalbán's ethnicity, TOS made it pretty clear what Khan's ethnicity was. He was an Indian Sikh, and that gave his character some flair which was retained in Wrath of Khan. I don't want to stray too much off topic, but the producers of the film have gone on record saying they purposefully cast someone who looked nothing like an Indian Sikh as Khan...this Discovery connection at least gives that discrepancy a chance to be remedied.

Like I said, I honestly don't mind that Cumberbatch is new Khan and I say this as someone with an indian background. Roles get recast all the time, the original guy who played Khan wasn't indian, so why should i expect the next guy to play him to be indian as well.

Also why get bent out of shape over the fact Into Darkness Khan not looking like Space Seed Khan, when no one looks like their prime universe counterparts.

 

[Hythlodeus]

IIRC, Benicio DelToro, Javier Bardem and Gael Garcia Bernal were all approached to play Khan BEFORE Cumberbatch was evn asked. The three most bankable spanish speaking actors of the world declined at which point, I'm pretty sure, the producers went: "So, we couldn't get anyone who resembles Montalban a little bit and is known to a larger audience. Who CAN we get that puts asses in the seats and can convincingly play someone with a superior intellect?"

I fail to understand the connection to DSC, but that might just be me

 

[Relayer1]

No faces were slapped by Mick Fleetwood.

You should check with Lindsey Buckingham...

 

[KBEnterprise]

Like I said, I honestly don't mind that Cumberbatch is new Khan and I say this as someone with an indian background. Roles get recast all the time, the original guy who played Khan wasn't indian, so why should i expect the next guy to play him to be indian as well.

Also why get bent out of shape over the fact Into Darkness Khan not looking like Space Seed Khan, when no one looks like their prime universe counterparts.

My issue is that the casting choice strays from canon. At the very least, you can look at most of the Kelvin cast, squint, and see the Prime counterparts. That's not the case with Khan.

IIRC, Benicio DelToro, Javier Bardem and Gael Garcia Bernal were all approached to play Khan BEFORE Cumberbatch was evn asked. The three most bankable spanish speaking actors of the world declined at which point, I'm pretty sure, the producers went: "So, we couldn't get anyone who resembles Montalban a little bit and is known to a larger audience. Who CAN we get that puts asses in the seats and can convincingly play someone with a superior intellect?"

I fail to understand the connection to DSC, but that might just be me

That's demonstrably false. They went out of their way to cast someone who did not look like Khan as seen in space seed. To quote Memory Alpha...

'Orci said they shied away from casting an Asian actor as Khan because "it became uncomfortable for me to support demonizing anyone of color, particularly any one of middle eastern descent or anyone evoking that...'"

So, according to him, it was a political move.

As for the DSC connection, I was wondering if anyone else thought the procedure that made Khan "John Harrison" was related in any way to the procedure that turned Voq into Ash Tyler!

 

[Hythlodeus]

My issue is that the casting choice strays from canon. At the very least, you can look at most of the Kelvin cast, squint, and see the Prime counterparts. That's not the case with Khan.


That's demonstrably false. They went out of their way to cast someone who did not look like Khan as seen in space seed. To quote Memory Alpha...

'Orci said they shied away from casting an Asian actor as Khan because "it became uncomfortable for me to support demonizing anyone of color, particularly any one of middle eastern descent or anyone evoking that...'"

So, according to him, it was a political move.

As for the DSC connection, I was wondering if anyone else thought the procedure that made Khan "John Harrison" was related in any way to the procedure that turned Voq into Ash Tyler!

That doesn't contradict that they were looking for well known latino actors first.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Nope. Chris Pine looks zero like young william shatner and doesn't sound or speak like him, Anton Yelchin looks nothing like Walter Koenig Karl Urban might do a passable McCoy but he looks nothing like him. I can look beyond these things and accept that roles get recast. Like I said, played by a mexican, now played by a british guy, do I care? No.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The timeline split when it did centuries later, so Khan should still have been born in Asia, before he took over three quarters of Asia, unless you'll all have me believe that TOS Khan was born in Mexico, and then emigrated to India to dominate the locals?

 

[KBEnterprise]

The timeline split when it did centuries later, so Khan should still have been born in Asia, before he took over three quarters of Asia, unless you'll all have me believe that TOS Khan was born in Mexico, and then emigrated to India to dominate the locals?

Khan was never born in Mexico. He was simply played by a Mexican actor. Khan, as far as I can tell, was always meant to be portrayed as an Indian man.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

It's pretty clear from his accent that he was born in mexico

 

[Guy Gardener]

Actually it's quite difficult to prove that he is a Sikh, since it's just something that Marla said while Khan was still unconscious and unidentified, so it's difficult to prove that he is from India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka or Pakistan, or that he dominated that corner of Asia.

 

[Campe]

<gasp>

Teh cannon!!!!!!1!!!!one!!!!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Actually it's quite difficult to prove that he is a Sikh,

In fact, given that he's definately not following the 5Ks (notably the lack of a turban), I have my doubts... Singh certainly suggests Indian subcontinent, but not necessarily Sikh (Hindu or even Muslim is possible).