Kirk's 'death' in STiD

[Mage]

Watching STiD right now, and I've realized before, how Kirk's death compared to TWOK really shows that everything Kirk says in STiD is what Spock would have said In TWOK, and vice versa.
Sure, the scene is still pretty cheesy when you look at it as is, but when you compare, it just works. And I like that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I thought it was great right up until Spock yelled "Khaaaaan!" - Pine's half-blinking was particularly effective at giving the impression of horrible damage without covering him in gore.

 

[The Wormhole]

Honestly, the scene never worked for me. I remember the first time I saw the movie, the fact that it's basically the scene from TWOK with Kirk and Spock's roles reversed completely took me out of the movie. Throughout the whole thing I sat there asking "are they seriously doing this?" And then when Spock did the "KHAN!" scream I actually said out loud "oh fuck off."

On subsequent re-watches I don't get as distracted, in fact it was only as recently as my last re-watch just this past March that I actually took note of the fact that Kirk's dialogue about "you would do the same" was actually related to the character arc between him and Spock in the movie and not just a reminder that in another timeline Spock did do the same.

I still maintain it was a mistake to remake the scene so exactly similar to its predecessor. It has everything except the elderly Chinese guy. But that scene really sticks out like a sore thumb in the movie.

 

[Ovation]

I know I'm in the minority of people who bother to talk about it around here (that's as far as I'll concede--NO ONE made a sound at the packed screening I attended--there was just a hush appropriate to the intentions of the filmmakers and NO ONE I know IRL has commented on it in a negative fashion). I found the entire scene, including the Spock "scream", more compelling than in TWOK (a film I loved and saw about 5 times at the cinema when gathering funds to pay for movies was a serious effort back in 1982). I know, I know, leave my Trek fandom membership card on the way out. But there you have it.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Honestly, the scene never worked for me. I remember the first time I saw the movie, the fact that it's basically the scene from TWOK with Kirk and Spock's roles reversed completely took me out of the movie. Throughout the whole thing I sat there asking "are they seriously doing this?" And then when Spock did the "KHAN!" scream I actually said out loud "oh fuck off."

I felt exactly the same way. It was a change purely for the sake of change, but made no sense whatsoever. It also lacked almost all of the gravitas of the movie they were... well, the only word I can think of that feels appropriate is "parodying."

But then, I really dislike what they've done with Spock altogether. I know he's a fan favorite from Heroes, but Quinto just lacks the raw presence needed for the role. His voice is all wrong as well. It just emphasizes the feeling that he's just some random guy in make-up rather than being a Vulcan, you know? And making him overly emotional as they keep doing in these new movies is just a disgrace for the character as a whole. Sure, he's half-Human, but that's why he tries so hard to embrace his Vulcan upbringing. That's the whole point of the character as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Tosk]

Screaming, cross-eyed Spock is the best Spock ever.

 

[Ovation]

I felt exactly the same way. It was a change purely for the sake of change, but made no sense whatsoever. It also lacked almost all of the gravitas of the movie they were... well, the only word I can think of that feels appropriate is "parodying."

But then, I really dislike what they've done with Spock altogether. I know he's a fan favorite from Heroes, but Quinto just lacks the raw presence needed for the role. His voice is all wrong as well. It just emphasizes the feeling that he's just some random guy in make-up rather than being a Vulcan, you know? And making him overly emotional as they keep doing in these new movies is just a disgrace for the character as a whole. Sure, he's half-Human, but that's why he tries so hard to embrace his Vulcan upbringing. That's the whole point of the character as far as I'm concerned.

He hasn't stopped trying. He's simply encountered far more difficult tests of his resolve at a far earlier point in life. Consequently, two things have occurred--1) he appears to have decided (based, in part, on advice from his elder self) to embrace a more balanced approach two his distinct heritages far sooner than the original and 2) he's been set on a path of experience that will only diverge further from the original's path, which can only lead to a greater divergence between the original and the new version. I doubt he develops into Sybok, who openly rejects Vulcan custom. I think he'll become more like the version of Spock we've seen in Trek's IV-VI and TNG a few decades ahead of time. Different in a number of ways from the original, but not so different as to be unrecognizable. YMMV

 

[Pauln6]

I felt Pike's death but I was too busy laughing throughout Kirk's scene. It tried to be so faithful that it did trip into parody. They should have gone for something more original.

 

[The Wormhole]

NO ONE I know IRL has commented on it in a negative fashion

With me, it's the exact opposite. Everyone I know IRL, regardless if they did or didn't like the movie, even the ones who are just casual fans have complained about the scene, about it being a knock-off of TWOK and that it ruins the movie. In fact, this forum is the only place I've seen anything other than harsh criticism leveled at the scene.

But then, I really dislike what they've done with Spock altogether. I know he's a fan favorite from Heroes, but Quinto just lacks the raw presence needed for the role. His voice is all wrong as well. It just emphasizes the feeling that he's just some random guy in make-up rather than being a Vulcan, you know? And making him overly emotional as they keep doing in these new movies is just a disgrace for the character as a whole. Sure, he's half-Human, but that's why he tries so hard to embrace his Vulcan upbringing. That's the whole point of the character as far as I'm concerned.

While I don't really approve of the more emotional Spock we've been getting in these movies, at the same time, it pretty much is in line with how Vulcans have been written from TNG onwards anyway.

 

[WebLurker]

I found the scene too on the nose for my tastes. It's also didn't work as well as the original one; there, these two characters had been friends for years, here, they don't know each other that well and haven't gotten along. The fact that Spock dying was after the bad guy had been defeated helped, too. With Spock "needing" to fight Khan, those extra scenes sucked a lot of gravity out of Kirk's dying (and the bizarre tribble experiment suddenly working and Kirk being okay a couple scenes later was too rushed to make his survival carry that much weight).

Also, I really think that Kirk should've stayed dead. Part of the point of the reboot was to be able to do new things, it would've given Kirk some closure to his story, since we see him giving his all to correct his mistakes, and allows for a brand-new dynamic moving forward. Having him live, with no effort or cost seems like a cheap cop out and a fear of taking creative risks, IMHO.

 

[Dales]

I thought it was great right up until Spock yelled "Khaaaaan!" - Pine's half-blinking was particularly effective at giving the impression of horrible damage without covering him in gore.

I didn't like the Khan scream either. I thought it was out of place and it did not fit what was suppose to be a heart felt moment but I have learned to deal with it as I have seen worse.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

While I don't really approve of the more emotional Spock we've been getting in these movies, at the same time, it pretty much is in line with how Vulcans have been written from TNG onwards anyway.

As mentioned, Spock didn't try to be a Vulcan. He always strove to be the Vulcan.

 

[fireproof78]

He hasn't stopped trying. He's simply encountered far more difficult tests of his resolve at a far earlier point in life. Consequently, two things have occurred--1) he appears to have decided (based, in part, on advice from his elder self) to embrace a more balanced approach two his distinct heritages far sooner than the original and 2) he's been set on a path of experience that will only diverge further from the original's path, which can only lead to a greater divergence between the original and the new version. I doubt he develops into Sybok, who openly rejects Vulcan custom. I think he'll become more like the version of Spock we've seen in Trek's IV-VI and TNG a few decades ahead of time. Different in a number of ways from the original, but not so different as to be unrecognizable. YMMV

I agree. I get why people don't like it, but for Kirk's arc it worked perfectly for me.

Spock's scream was the only thing that stuck out as kind of odd, but it was 2 seconds, and the prior scene is far better than to be ruined by that 2 seconds.

As for Spock, apparently the concept that he is going through some pretty severely traumatic events in the course of one year is regarded as still rather minor detail that doesn't impact him. Well, given the lengths that Prime Spock went for Pike is it any other that he would be negatively impacted by nu-PIke's death? And the nu-Kirk's death as well right after that? I'm sorry, that's a lot of death to deal with under normal circumstances.

 

[Mage]

Fully agree that the scene itself is cheesy, and the KHAAAAAN was way to much. I just felt that everything Kirk said, was what Spock would have said in TWOK had he been capable of showing his emotions. I liked that parralel.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I thought it was great right up until Spock yelled "Khaaaaan!"

Correct me if I'm wrong--and forgive me if someone else made this point--but Spock had no reason, really, to blame Khan, since the damage that Kirk died repairing was inflicted by Marcus.

 

[seigezunt]

I enjoyed the new movies and spend way too much time defending them, but this sequence is probably the biggest drawback of STiD for me.

 

[Timo]

Correct me if I'm wrong--and forgive me if someone else made this point--but Spock had no reason, really, to blame Khan, since the damage that Kirk died repairing was inflicted by Marcus.

Indeed!

OTOH, perhaps the yell is unrelated to Kirk's demise, and instead prompted by the fact that Spock just telepathically sensed that not only is Khan still alive, but hell-bent on ramming SF HQ?

TImo Saloniemi

 

[WebLurker]

Fully agree that the scene itself is cheesy, and the KHAAAAAN was way to much. I just felt that everything Kirk said, was what Spock would have said in TWOK had he been capable of showing his emotions. I liked that parralel.

Unless, since Marcus is dead and Khan was the one trying to attack them just now, Spock saw Khan as the only one left to blame?

 

[Thowra]

I think 'Khan' Would have been better said under Spock's breath - as if remembering he still had to go after him. A nod to the script of the original, but a different context.

Other than that, I didn't really like the scene - too many flaws make the parallel unforgivable. What was the point trying to shoe-horn it in when it didn't really work or make sense (for the reasons given above)?

 

[TwoJakes]

Also, I really think that Kirk should've stayed dead

It would have been a pretty daring move. And a new arc for Spock to move to command of the Enterprise at the end of the movie, he'd be the one to give the speech we saw.

First he loses his mother, then Vulcan, then Pike, then Kirk. This could have "sobered him up" and transformed Spock more into the controlled person we saw in TOS.