Janeway and Chakotay -- was this the end of the romance?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by KelisThePoet, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. KelisThePoet

    KelisThePoet Commander Red Shirt

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    So, Janeway and Chakotay seem to have a degree of romantic chemistry and tension in Seasons 1-3 that seems to fall off in Seasons 4-7. There are many reasons why this happened from a creative standpoint, some obvious, others conjectural. But what's the fictional, in-universe explanation . . .

    I just re-watched "Scorpion Part 1," and I'm wondering if (a) this could be viewed as the moment it all fell apart and (b) the writers might have even intended as much.

    Janeway and Chakotay seem very close at the beginning of this episode, Chakotay promising her that she's not alone, Janeway telling him that she can't imagine being without him and giving him an affectionate little pat. Then they disagree over the Borg alliance and Janeway says that she really is alone. I'm wondering if that romantically cooled things for them and for her in particular, even after the situation was practically and emotionally resolved in other ways.
     
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  2. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I didn't feel there was any chemistry between them in any season (at least not romantic chemistry ), but I do think Scorpion is the ep that most agree is where their supposed chemistry ended. And probably because of their disagreement on the Borg.
     
  3. Terok Nor

    Terok Nor Commodore Commodore

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    Chakotay is one of the most boring men in the entire universe. Kathryn probably realised that once they were clear of Kazon/Vidiian space and Maquis traitors. Once the Borg came along she realised he was a spineless coward too and that was that. Season 4-7 Janeway is far too badass for a chump like Chakotay.
     
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  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder is Chuckles fell for seven in Scorpion, and then spent 3 years suppressing his lust because the relationship might seem inappropriate?
     
  5. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This seems reasonable to me. I think Kathy had a genuine yearning for... friendship, companionship, both on a personal standpoint but also on a professional level, she felt the weight of every choice she had to make in the DQ, because there was no chain of command above her to qualify those choices, and in some ways she hoped to have an equal in Chakotay, someone who she could actually relax with and confide in, and yes, that began to manifest romantically too over time. It seems reasonable to me that the moment they had a genuine difference of opinion, she would retreat from that closeness.
     
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  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think there was a good chemistry between Chakotay and Janeway most of the time and I would have liked to see a "happy ending" between them.

    But I guess that Janeway was professional enough not to have a relationship with anyone during the long journey home.

    When it comes to Chakotay and Seven, there was no chemistry at all. I guess that it was just something those in charge came up with to annoy a large group of fans.
     
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  7. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, I think that Chakotay's betrayal and a few time after, Janeway's decision to keep Seven and take the young Borg under her wing were the first blows in their special relationship. Of course, they tried to move forward to continue to work effectively and let's be honest, they pretty managed to do it ... until Equinox, when Janeway followed a personal vendetta toward Ransom and Chakotay developped an open hostility/mistrust toward Janeway. The tension deeply and definitively jeopardized what they once shared (deep friendship,, romance). Though they kept working together, their relationships
    definitely changed and in the end, both were on their sides and note that they didn't seem to be unhappy... .
    -> I think that once on Earth, Janeway, newly promoted Vice-Admiral, will be too busy with her new responsibilities to think to Chakotay as a potential companion and Chakotay, if he doesn't end in a Federal prison, will be busy with Seven or/and how to rekindle with his home planet/ancestral traditions. You know what we say: "out of sight out of mind", even if they will have a sincere friendship to share...
     
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  8. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have to give Christie Golden a lot of credit here. She ended that silly Chakotay-Seven relationship in one of the first Voyager Relaunch books.

    Credit also to Kirsten Beyer for not bringing it up again.

    As for what happened after "Endgame", I consider the Voyager Relaunch books as the source for information. Even if I'm not happy with some aspects of those stories.
     
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  9. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I agree that Janeway taking 7 under her wing was a factor in the rift that grew between J and Chak (though I disagree that there was ever any viable, romantic prospects between the two, despite what the writers tried, etc.). I think they had already grown apart somewhat prior to that though. The events in Scorpion and during season 4 generally, would have served to put the nail in the coffin, so to speak. They did keep up a reasonable professional relationship however, despite tension and a difference of opinion in some critical areas. During season 7 (and maybe the latter part of season 6) Janeway seemed to distance herself from many of the crew, not just Chakotay. Seven, most notably, maybe, but some of the others as well. That, to me, stands out even more than the distance between J and C.
     
  10. Mareika

    Mareika Captain Captain

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    That`s interesting. I on the other hand felt that they had a strong attraction for another already in the very first scene where they met on bridge.And than - much more- at the and of "Parallax"[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  11. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Contrary to most of the psosts here which are written from a Star Trek Universe perspective when it comes to analyze the Janeway-Chakotay relationship, I would like to add a "Gray Universe" analyse to this debate.

    The writers of Star Trek were never good at showing up relationships.

    The Picard-Crusher relationship could have worked, the chemistry was there. But the writers managed to make it look highly dysfunctional.
    Almost the same with Riker-Troi but at least they had the decency to let them marry in the last movie.

    Worf-Troi had no chemistry and Worf-Jadzia was probably made up only because they were going to kill off Jadzia at the end of the season.

    The only relationship they managed to show up in a rational and normal way was the one between Miles and Keiko O'Brien, maybe because there were better writers involved with DS9. If berman and Braga had been in charge, the Miles-Keiko relationship would have been shattered in some way.

    Kes-Neelix did actually work for a while probably because it was doomed to be broken up sooner or later. I never watched the 7th season of Voyager (due to unpleasant events at the end of season 6) so I'm not sure how the Paris-Torres relationship developed there. Before that, I did have my doubts about it.

    There was really a chemistry between Chakotay and Janeway which could have been used in a more positive and constructive way if the writers had had any skills in writing about relationships and develope them. At least they could have given many of the fans what those fans wanted at the end episodes of the series. Instead they ruined all possibilities and came up with that morbid Chakotay-Seven affair, making Chakotay look like a total a**hole.

    The worst thing was how they made Janeway look like a psycho in several episodes in the later seasons while Chakotay as a character was sadly neglected and turned only into a moving image in the background. But I guess that the writers and producers were too occupied with trying to show up Seven from all possible angles than to even think about relationships and character development for the othher characters in the show.
     
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  12. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, I appreciate you (and many, many others) having this opinion and the pics of them look great; I just don't happen to share that view of their relationship, or their onscreen vibes.
    It's a very subjective element... I can clearly see where TPTB attempted to write in some chemistry perhaps, but imho they either failed or the actors/characters just did not have the presence onscreen that was required to achieve the chemistry adequately. Just my personal view of it, and I am not at all surprised that mine is contrary to that of others'. This is not intentional, but I am generally at odds with those around me opinion-wise (especially where "art" and entertainment is concerned). Just the story of my life.
     
  13. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To be clear, @cosmic mouse, when I talked about the "special relationship" (*) shared between Janeway and Chakotay, it has nothing to do with any kind of feeling of love, but rather a great complicity, especially in first 3 seasons. After Seven's arrival on board, things between both commanding officers were slowly distended ... until the shared loss of confidence in Equinox, after which, though they kept a good working relationship, at least in front, the tender complcity they have shared once, totally disappeared. Her reaction at the end of Endgame was like, "business above all", no place for emotions... even if her behaviour reflected excitement/amazement to see her former mentor on screen. But nothing about Chakotay/Seven, no matter that she knew about them or not, like disappointement he didn't wait for her and/or regret not to have act on her feelings earlier, etc...).
    .
    Maybe I'm wrong but I think that viewers have often confused the chemistry between the actors, which was clear, with the one supposed felt by their characters, which was "forced" by Jeri Taylor's to the point to push the flirtation we have attended to a superior level but fortunately, "Resolutions" and "Hunters" put a sense of closure to an eventual romance and that for the better, in my opinion: a Captain who can
    support the weight of her responsibilities and acts on its own, regardless her gender.

    My concern was IF Janeway had yielded to the repeated advances of Chakotay would have been her loss of authority. The fact that once they would have become lovers, the balance of power which was smooth but well present, would have found itself changed, becoming gradually nonexistent. To be clear, I fear that Chakotay would have tried to interfere more in the prerogatives of Janeway's capitaincy, imposing ever more his positions/presence until becoming a Captain bis.

    Nah, Janeway was the mistress of her queendom from the beginning to the end. No place for love and romance, which would have diverted from her purpose. Bring Voyager and her crew at home! :techman:
     
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  14. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This I can see a bit... although I hope you're not insinuating that they colluded? I read "complicity" as having some negative connotations that I'm not sure you intended...?

    Well, what I was originally responding to was the OP's query on romantic chemistry, but if one includes non-romantic chemistry, then... they still didn't have it in spades imo, at least not in a manner that served to convince me. I just don't think the actors matched up with each other very well, or else maybe their characters didn't.
    Now, Seven and Janeway is very different: there's chemistry there all day long. Those two generally convnced me of their growing bond and the struggles they both endured vis-a vis (up to a certain point early in season 7 when Janeway inexplicably became more aloof towards Seven).
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She would have dumped Chakotay's babies on a rogue asteroid too.
     
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  16. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No, I reassure you, I didn't talk about any connivence or collusion. I only refered to 2 people who has managed to find quickly - maybe too quickly to be reasonably convincing but well - a common ground, unconventional for sure but it worked, to work together for well-being of the crew, newly united.

    After "Resolutions", Janeway and Chakotay shared a platonic relationship, where trust and respect had become keynotes. Although Chakotay attempted to relaunch the flame in "Hunters", after Janeway announced him that she has gotten a "Dear Jane" letter, she kept a stiff upper lip and never changed her mind afterwards, even if she continued inviting him every weeks for dinner in her quarters ... and touching him tenderly like she used to do with all members of her senior crew and civilians -> do not forget that Kate Mulgrew, Janeway's performer, is a very tactile individual so, there was nothing exceptional there!
    And yes, Janeway and Seven were far closer. A majority of fans think that they shared a mother/daughter's relationship while some others, less numerous, think that they could have been more like lovers.
    -> I tend to think that their storyline could have been in both ways if producers/writers/actresses have been enough courageous to write and play this storyline* (hey, if Seven can experience romance with Chakotay, I don't why it couldn't be possible for her to live the same with Janeway, who was as old and experienced as her friend & FO... at less, it could have appeared more logical! I didn't know, neither understand, why in S7, Janeway was less present at Seven's side beyond the short period where she began to see Chakotay,.... Maybe wanted she experience the life on board by herself?!

    *Voyager which took place in 24th century, was produced & written by people in 90's. Maybe that if the show was written today, Janeway and Seven would be a couple... .
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Written today, one would wonder how Seven isn't still 7 years old and screaming at the top of her lungs about the scary Robots cutting into her face.

    Unimatrx Zero is hardly a solution to where she got an adult human personality from, because that version of Annika is in a box and unaccessible to the "thing" aping human behaviour we all fell in love with.
     
  18. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Good . That's what I thought . Usually when I see the word complicity it's being used in a,similar manner , or in conjunction with, collusion.

    Regarding Seven and Janeway, I view their chemistry as something between a mentor and pupil, and I think this is what TPTB intended. I can very easily see that evolving into something more intimate, but as you said, the producers were likely not encouraged or supported to do this since we were a bit less evolved 20 years ago. Janeway distancing herself from Seven is confusing; I first noticed this after Imperfection, which makes it stranger since you'd think an experience like that would serve to bring them closer, not the opposite.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Answer: Acting.

    Question: How was Jeri supposed to show the hallmarks of a love affair with a meangirl who was bulling her to tears?
     
  20. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    answer: by using her acting chops (of which she has ample, as does Mulgrew). That's not the reason the writers failed to write in any reason for the supposed/perceived rift.