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J.J. 1701 size vs. TMP-WOK-SFS-TVH-TFF-TUC 1701/1701-A size?

In-post images need to be from an image-hosting service or your own web space, not hotlinked directly from other sites. I've had to convert images in your posts to links repeatedly.

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/rules-a-short-guide-to-posting-on-the-bbs.282269/
Don't hotlink. If you're posting a picture, host it on your own site/Photobucket, whatever. DON'T just link to another site. They hate that.

Alternately, posting just a URL to an image on another site is OK.
 
if you can look past the derisive tone, this is a good rundown of the evidence.

however his conclusion is that the ship is 366 meters, which is incorrect demonstrated by his breakdown. the ship is something over 700 meters, which is comparable to the scale of the ships in star trek: discovery. inconsistencies are a result of the size of the ship not being settled during the production of star trek 2009 and the fact that films often go by what looks good rather than what makes sense.
 
What is the final verdict on the length and decks of 2009-STID-STB 1701 size vs. TMP-WOK-SFS-TVH-TFF-TUC 1701/1701-A size?
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20140709074747&path-prefix=en
http://www.liveforfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/star-Trek-enterprise-one.jpg

note:TOK should be TUC in title. ;) Thanks for fixing it.
Classic movie Enterprise: 305 meters
Kelvin universe Enteprise: 725 meters
Classic TV series Enterprise: 289 meters
Disco Enterprise: 422 meters (I think...? Or was it 480m?)
 
Classic movie Enterprise: 305 meters
Kelvin universe Enteprise: 725 meters
...
If TMP 1701 had been a totally new ship [not refit] as large as the Kelvin 305 meters, then I can not imagine what Roddenberry, Wise and the production designers of TMP would have done with double the size of space! :biggrin: The Rec room could have been used to play indoor sports...:wtf:
And the hangar deck could be huge like the Kelvin 1701.:luvlove:
 
Evidently having a Romulan from the future (with scavenged Borg technology, no less!) swat one of your best ships as if it were a fly can make you a little paranoid, paranoid enough to give up orbital shipyards in favor of Iowa cornfields, and doubling the size (and probably more than tripling the armament) of your new batch of ships.
:vulcan:
 
Classic movie Enterprise: 305 meters
Classic TV series Enterprise: 289 meters

While those numbers appear in almost every tech-book about Star Trek, they are NOT canon.

And deservedly so not, because they are ridiculous and make no sense! On such a small size, the sets wouldn't fit into the ship at all.

In every even half realistic depiction of a floor plan of these ships, they are at least 50% longer, which also btw fits a lot better with a larger Excelsior (a ship that HAS to be longer than the non-canon numbers always given), and also better in relation to the later TNG era ships (who's size is fitting).

The only reason those numbers are cited everywhere is because it was roughly the size of an aircraft carrier into the 60s, and Matt Jeffries put it as a length scale next to a concept of the ship - but that happened at a time when he designed the Enterprise with only one(!) deck in the saucer (and the "supersized" original dome from "the cage", which had to be this big to fit the height of the bridge inside), wheras the finalized version clearly has two(!) rows of windows in the saucer and the smaller bridge dome we know from the series.

So while those numbers are the most common ones on non-canon material - they're clearly wrong.

Kelvin universe Enteprise: 725 meters

Which is also a kind of stupid scale. Because it's not only bigger than the Galaxy class - it's SO big, the Enterprise ceases to be an exploration vessel, and basically becomes a stardestroyer that can carry hundreds of thousands of troops and basiclly invade a whole planet on it's own.

If a ship this size appears in your solar system, you don't think "Oh, first contact", you think of an "Independance-day"-like invasion scenario.

But alas - this is the official and correct number, and fits with the size as depicted on screen.

Disco Enterprise: 422 meters (I think...? Or was it 480m?)

:techman:
Which is super odd, that Discovery, despite having SO many issues with their other ship designs (size- and era-wise), and a complete unnecessary redesign of the original Connie - they are the first one to give a completely plausable, screen-accurate and overall fitting size for the TOS Enterprise!

This is not just the size of the Diso-prise, this is also the appropriate size for the original TOS connie. And since DIS is supposed to be "prime" (lol), this even becomes semi-official now.:guffaw:
 
While those numbers appear in almost every tech-book about Star Trek, they are NOT canon.

And deservedly so not, because they are ridiculous and make no sense! On such a small size, the sets wouldn't fit into the ship at all.

In every even half realistic depiction of a floor plan of these ships, they are at least 50% longer, which also btw fits a lot better with a larger Excelsior (a ship that HAS to be longer than the non-canon numbers always given), and also better in relation to the later TNG era ships (who's size is fitting).

The only reason those numbers are cited everywhere is because it was roughly the size of an aircraft carrier into the 60s, and Matt Jeffries put it as a length scale next to a concept of the ship - but that happened at a time when he designed the Enterprise with only one(!) deck in the saucer (and the "supersized" original dome from "the cage", which had to be this big to fit the height of the bridge inside), wheras the finalized version clearly has two(!) rows of windows in the saucer and the smaller bridge dome we know from the series.

So while those numbers are the most common ones on non-canon material - they're clearly wrong.

That's a staple of TV and film, though. The apartment in Friends is far larger on the inside, and a somewhat famous example. The Statue of Liberty is often depicted larger than it's actual size in movies, because it's a famous landmark all by itself, with a larger-than-life reputation and comes across as small when suddenly put next to buildings and skyscrapers.

It's all about creating an illusion, not building an actual giant starship.
Which is also a kind of stupid scale. Because it's not only bigger than the Galaxy class - it's SO big, the Enterprise ceases to be an exploration vessel, and basically becomes a stardestroyer that can carry hundreds of thousands of troops and basiclly invade a whole planet on it's own.

If a ship this size appears in your solar system, you don't think "Oh, first contact", you think of an "Independance-day"-like invasion scenario.
This makes no sense. What is the "correct" size for an exploration vessel? Or the correct size for an engine of destruction? Beyond certainly showed that size isn't everything.
 
If only an official/canon Star Trek Starfleet Technical Manual for the Kelvin 1701 would be published to answer these questions. :brickwall:
 
That's a staple of TV and film, though. The apartment in Friends is far larger on the inside, and a somewhat famous example. The Statue of Liberty is often depicted larger than it's actual size in movies, because it's a famous landmark all by itself, with a larger-than-life reputation and comes across as small when suddenly put next to buildings and skyscrapers.
It's all about creating an illusion, not building an actual giant starship.
The difference is that with StarTrek the starships* really could have the correct size! The ONLY thing standing against that are some stupid non-canon sources plastered all over the place. There is really no loss in throwing out what isn't supposed to be applicable anyway. Especially considering the benefits of actually making sense.



*not applicable for things like shuttles or the Millenium Falcon, where they have to built a real-life mock-up for the actors - those things are always going to be "too small"

This makes no sense. What is the "correct" size for an exploration vessel? Or the correct size for an engine of destruction? Beyond certainly showed that size isn't everything.

Interstellar starships are always going to be both. If you can achieve faster than light travel, you can achieve planet wide destruction by the very same means. Scale is definitely not a factor regarding the engines.

What IS an important distinction, is between a starship that has a crew to operate the starship. And a starship carrying hundreds of thousands of troops with no obvious purpose. The latter one is always going to be suspicious. Because why would anyone want to park an entire friggin' Army without anything to do right next to your doorway?

In the Star Trek (and Star Wars) universes where space on starships is pretty efficiently distributed, something the size of a stardestroyer (or the JJprise) is always going to be suspicious: Yes, even a smaller ship could blow you to pieces as well. But THESE ships can leave a permanent occupation force right on your planet as well.

In the "Alien" universe sizes scale a bit different. A ship like the Nostromo or the Prometheus might be the same size or much bigger. But in these fictional universes, those ships carry only a handfull of personal - Sure, they could blow you up. But they can't realistically occupy you, so they don't look like an invading force. The same way the classic TOS Enterprise, a crew of 400 simply isn't enough for a hostile take-over, especially if the majority are needed for normal ship functions anyway. Those are believable as "exploration" vessels, not primarily "military" ones.

An interesting instance is the Enterprise-D: Because, just purely from it's size and capability of transporting people - she absolutely could be a threat as well. But the designers made a clever choice, and pretty much plastered the entire ship with windows from top to bottom. That way the ship looks more like a city in space, less than a single-purpose craft like, say, the klingon ships or the traditional Connie (or even the Voyager). That easily gives a good "justification" for carrying so many people without coming across as threating.

Also, all of this is very vague, and with many exceptions. But I hope I could make my line of thinking a bit clearer with that.:techman:
 
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The difference is that with StarTrek the starships* really could have the correct size! The ONLY thing standing against that are some stupid non-canon sources plastered all over the place. There is really no loss in throwing out what isn't supposed to be applicable anyway. Especially considering the benefits of actually making sense.



*not applicable for things like shuttles or the Millenium Falcon, where they have to built a real-life mock-up for the actors - those things are always going to be "too small"
They really can't. The designers are always going to build new sets without a care as to what will fit or not (see: TMP Rec Room, ST'09 shuttle, Next Gen's Ten Forward etc) and whatever changes you need to make to accommodate one (the 1200m-requiring ST'09/ID shuttlebay for example or 2x size Ten Forward) breaks other established features (like the Kelvin Ent's bridge window and the E-D's bridge module). Thus the best you can do is fudge to best fit the illusion they are trying to portray.
Interstellar starships are always going to be both. If you can achieve faster than light travel, you can achieve planet wide destruction by the very same means. Scale is definitely not a factor regarding the engines.

What IS an important distinction, is between a starship that has a crew to operate the starship. And a starship carrying hundreds of thousands of troops with no obvious purpose. The latter one is always going to be suspicious. Because why would anyone want to park an entire friggin' Army without anything to do right next to your doorway?
But we don't know how many crew are required? The Kelvin universe Enterprise either has a crew of 400 (ST'09 script) or 1,100 (the now-defunct Experience the Enterprise site), neither of which are a suspicious amount. The USS Discovery is 750m, with a secondary hull of enormous volume and 300 since labs, yet has a crew of only 130. The USS Kelvin has a crew of 800 (perhaps more, since 800 were the survivors) and families on board.
An interesting instance is the Enterprise-D: Because, just purely from it's size and capability of transporting people - she absolutely could be a threat as well. But the designers made a clever choice, and pretty much plastered the entire ship with windows from top to bottom. That way the ship looks more like a city in space, less than a single-purpose craft like, say, the klingon ships or the traditional Connie (or even the Voyager). That easily gives a good "justification" for carrying so many people without coming across as threating.
Who is to say what an alien's idea of threatening is? I'm sure there's a planet (or even a segment of the population of Earth) which would be upset by Troi walking nude across her cabin to get a new uniform after a shower.
 
They really can't. The designers are always going to build new sets without a care as to what will fit or not (see: TMP Rec Room, ST'09 shuttle, Next Gen's Ten Forward etc) and whatever changes you need to make to accommodate one (the 1200m-requiring ST'09/ID shuttlebay for example or 2x size Ten Forward) breaks other established features (like the Kelvin Ent's bridge window and the E-D's bridge module). Thus the best you can do is fudge to best fit the illusion they are trying to portray.

Well, I prefer "best fit possible" over "completely off-scale" every day!

Sorry but the 947-foot length for the TOS E is canon.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0198.jpg
Yeah, yeah, it's unreadable on a 1960s TV screen, but the original artwork is readable, is reproduced clearly in The Making of Star Trek, and is official.
And Drexlers 350+m floorplan was visible in the background of "In a Mirror Darkly", and as the newest version clearly trumps this one. Yeah. This really doesn't make it canon in any way. Neither does this make the inside gags in the floorplan of the Enterprise D (like a giant car in the shuttlebay) on TNG canon either btw.
 
.....
*not applicable for things like shuttles or the Millenium Falcon, where they have to built a real-life mock-up for the actors - those things are always going to be "too small"

...
Agree, this applies also to the:
  • Lost In Space(1965-1968) forty-seven foot Jupiter 2 with landing gears down mockup built and only used in several visually impressive episodes. The three decks interior sets would not fit, ever.
  • Ark II(1976-1977) Working Ark II vehicle built , but the interior sets would barely fit.
  • Planet Of The Apes(1974-1975) A.N.S.A. spaceship mockup built, but the interior would not fit.
But, I still enjoy them all. :techman:
 
Sorry but the 947-foot length for the TOS E is canon.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0198.jpg
Yeah, yeah, it's unreadable on a 1960s TV screen, but the original artwork is readable, is reproduced clearly in The Making of Star Trek, and is official.
It's also the depiction of a starship that is most certainly NOT the Enteprise we see on screen; most obvious from the side view:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/tosgraphics/imageproxy.php?url=http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b64/fendert/TOSGRAPHICS forum/20150511-203635_zps7xh9vo54.jpg
A clearer image of the inconsistencies is here:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/tosgraphics/imageproxy.php?url=http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b64/fendert/TOSGRAPHICS forum/Enterprise Incident Side_zpstqxbbd3a.jpg
The extra horizontal band around the saucer and the more curvey secondary hull are features that never appear on the ship we see week after week.

Yes, these are minor details on screen, but then again so is the scale bar! ;)
 
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