• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

I've Been Touched by the Prophets

Withers

Captain
In a non-Catholic Church kind of way...

Tears of the Prophets... this episode is full of moments that have stuck out in my mind over the years. It's one that I watch on repeat as I got to sleep at night. Were I asked I could probably quote the entire episode off the top of my head if given the right motivation (“Quote an entire episode of Deep Space Nine or the granny gets it!”) I love the episode but for years now there have been some elements I've been uncomfortable and in spite of loving the episode those have been my... focus. It's just easier for someone like me to complain than to gush.

So what're these weird occurances that stick out so much? Alright, just for fun-

First, we have the fact that Ross rails Sisko in a conversation in which he basically says “I've had it- You can be a Captain or you can be the Emissary but you can't be both.” He says this after he's just recently awarded Ben the Christopher Pike Medal of Valor. Ross seems to have forgotten that were it not for that dual role the Alpha Quadrant would have been invaded by Dominion reinforcements. Whatever the Admiraltys problem with Sisko as the Emissary it isn't hard to posit that it has done more good than bad.

So, yeah, there's that.

Second we have the people who decided to go to Chintoka and the people who don't For some reason Jadzia stays behind instead of Kira and for some reason Julian stays behind instead of Garak. I know, I know- this was Jadzia's last episode and so they had to write her out somehow. I just think it comes off as a little obvious what was going on. It's a nitpick especially given that the crew on the Defiant/Station never made a whole lot of sense to begin with in the first place.

So, yeah, there's that.

The final thing I have a problem with are the quantum torpedoes. We see one of the orbital weapons platforms take like 6 quantum torpedoes before it finally explodes but then an Excelsior class ship takes one out with two phaser blasts. I was like “Aw, c'mon... it shouldn't work like that.” Again, a nitpick, especially given that the effectiveness of weapons versus one another was never clearly established really anywhere in Trek.

So, yeah, there's that.

But here's why I decided to write this post. There was a moment in this episode that I think exemplifies the interconnected nature of the cast of characters on Deep Space Nine. It speaks not only to how they trusted one another but how they respected one another. I might be looking a little too closely but I get the impression from their reaction to one another that they care about each other. It's a really cool moment and if you blink you'll miss it.

Worf: Target Locked.
Kira: Fire.
Worf: We are unable to penetrate the moon's defensive grid.

In this moment Kira is clearly out of her element. She isn't at all sure what to do next and seems especially vulnerable in Sisko's absence. The look on her face is one of reserved panic.

Miles: Sir, I have an idea.
Her eyes brighten in a moment of “Oh, thank god somebody does otherwise we're all dead.”

Kira: Go ahead.
Miles: Maybe we can't destroy that power generator...but I bet those weapon platforms could.
Kira: Why would they fire on their own power source?
Garak: We would have to fool the platforms targeting systems into thinking the generators an enemy ship.
Miles:We could use our deflector array to imprint a Federation warp signature on the generators energy matrix.

It sounds kind of pie-in-the-sky and Kira's obviously no Engineer. She's probably never done anything so elaborate before or even attempted it given her background in homemade explosives and surface warfare and the other people on the bridge are no doubt aware of this. She took command of the ship in a moment of confusion when Sisko became “ill” but it was clear it wasn't a power grab just doing what was necessary. It all comes together for me when she unassuredly looks at Worf. Her face is basically asking “Well... what do you think?”

Worf: It is worth a try.

At that point she decides its what they should do and they go for it, of course winning the day. The exchange the bridge was just... excellent to me. Watching it refreshes why I liked DS9 so much. As great as the writing is the actors just play so well off one another. You can't write what was shown. You can only count on actors displaying it non-verbally and this is one of those DS9 moments that does it flawlessly. While Kira taking over Defiant instead of Worf used to be an issue, in thinking more deeply on it, it seems perfectly natural- a crisis arose and she stepped up to the plate, not to push Worf aside, evidenced by the fact that his 'yes vote' is what sealed the deal on their course of action.

So, there you have it. Tears of the Prophets... this episode is full of moments that have stuck out in my mind over the years. If I am any evidence of anything it's that if you watch this show it only gets better and better over time.




-Withers-​
 
Hmm, I don't actually like this one that much. I mean, it's exciting enough, but I have a lot of gripes with it. Jadzia's death felt botched for one thing, but it's the Dukat stuff that really irks me. Blaming Sisko instead of Damar? No, just... no!
 
Hmm, I don't actually like this one that much. I mean, it's exciting enough, but I have a lot of gripes with it. Jadzia's death felt botched for one thing, but it's the Dukat stuff that really irks me. Blaming Sisko instead of Damar? No, just... no!
Yeah... I was expecting it to be some ruse on Dukat's part, because it made so little sense...

And I was expecting the whole thing with Pah-wraith Dukat sealing the wormhole to start making some sense... but it just wouldn't. To quote Weyoun: "How does that help us?" :cardie:
 
Wow... I'm so glad I bother to write these things every now and then.




-Withers-​

I read your post in its entirety and thought it was both interesting and insightful.

I find myself feeling similarly when I rewatch DS9 more than any of the other Trek series, I just have such a... fondness for the characters - which I wouldn't have if it wasn't for the combination of the superb acting and the wonderful writing. As much as I love all the other Trek characters (and I really do love them all equally) DS9's are consistently the most developed, best written and they're all portrayed by fantastic actors.

Whenever I read a thread discussing an episode, even one which I haven't seen since my last rewatch (which was a couple of years ago now), I find myself remembering it (usually fondly) and wanting to watch it again.

I'm afraid its been a while since I've seen Tears of the Prophets, so I can't really offer my own insight, except to say that I'm not satisfied with any of the deaths of main characters in Trek - but that's probably my only gripe with the episode.

The scenes that really sticks out in my mind (though I don't remember whether they were in this one or the next, as I said, its been a while) are Jadzia's actual death, with Worf by her side (and his Klingon death howl) and then later, Sisko talking to Jadzia's Starfleet flag covered coffin... Even though I know I can just rewatch Seasons 1 - 6 and see Jadzia all over again, those scenes get me every time... :(

Also, I'm one of those people in the, Dukat going insane and being pure evil made sense, and, I have no problem with the Pah-Wraiths, camps. ;)
 
Also, I'm one of those people in the, Dukat going insane and being pure evil made sense, and, I have no problem with the Pah-Wraiths, camps. ;)
And there is another problem, at least they should have decided if they wanted him to be insane, or "pure evil"! Because an insane person is not responsible for their actions, so if you make him insane, you've pretty much denied yourself the chance to condemn his as "pure evil" for any action he undertakes while being mentally ill. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

But the DS9 writers apparently wanted to have their cake and eat it, so they just couldn't decide whether he should be insane or rational. So first he's insane in Sacrifice of Angels and Waltz...and we get one of the most absurd moments in DS9 - Sisko declaring the ravings of a lunatic as a proof of "true evil". Well if Dukat is true evil, then Sisko should have concluded that based on the things Dukat had actually done (and he did them while he was rational). But apparently Sisko didn't think so, and only realized that Dukat was "pure evil" in Waltz, based on Dukat's insane rambling. :vulcan:

And then post-Waltz, all signs of insanity disappear, except for the fact that his plans don't make sense. It is so convenient - and so lazy - to write a villain who is supposedly insane: whenever he does something that doesn't make sense, just because it is convenient to the plot, we can just say "oh, but he is insane, so it doesn't have to make sense"! :shifty:
 
Also, I'm one of those people in the, Dukat going insane and being pure evil made sense, and, I have no problem with the Pah-Wraiths, camps. ;)
And there is another problem, at least they should have decided if they wanted him to be insane, or "pure evil"! Because an insane person is not responsible for their actions, so if you make him insane, you've pretty much denied yourself the chance to condemn his as "pure evil" for any action he undertakes while being mentally ill. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

But the DS9 writers apparently wanted to have their cake and eat it, so they just couldn't decide whether he should be insane or rational. So first he's insane in Sacrifice of Angels and Waltz...and we get one of the most absurd moments in DS9 - Sisko declaring the ravings of a lunatic as a proof of "true evil". Well if Dukat is true evil, then Sisko should have concluded that based on the things Dukat had actually done (and he did them while he was rational). But apparently Sisko didn't think so, and only realized that Dukat was "pure evil" in Waltz, based on Dukat's insane rambling. :vulcan:

And then post-Waltz, all signs of insanity disappear, except for the fact that his plans don't make sense. It is so convenient - and so lazy - to write a villain who is supposedly insane: whenever he does something that doesn't make sense, just because it is convenient to the plot, we can just say "oh, but he is insane, so it doesn't have to make sense"! :shifty:

-facepalm-

I shouldn't have tacked on that last line at all. Honestly? I don't care to debate this particular issue again. If you really want, I can dredge up the argument I'm sure I made in a past thread about why it made sense to me.

But I don't really want to as that has NOTHING to do with Wither's OP, and I'm really surprised that a regular on these forums decided to come along and derail his thread with more inane arguing about Dukat. I liked what they did, you didn't, we get it, can we move on now please?
 
I agree with you on Waltz, DevilEyes. Actually a good episode, but that comment of Siskos always ruins that episode for me. Evil? I would say ill, confused...I felt pitty for the poor guy, when watching the episode. And Siskos says he is pure evil. That did not fit and was also out of character for Sisko, I find, because Siskos actually seems compassionate and how can a compassionate man call a sick man evil?
He never liked Dukat or is actions, but still I never had the feeling Sisko hated him... and calling someone pure evil is hate, without any light left.

And the scene with Dukat and Damar meeting the first time after Ziyals death....yeah, that was a bit dissapointing.
How would you have written the scene, if it had been for you to decite?

TerokNor
 
I agree with you on Waltz, DevilEyes. Actually a good episode, but that comment of Siskos always ruins that episode for me. Evil? I would say ill, confused...I felt pitty for the poor guy, when watching the episode. And Siskos says he is pure evil. That did not fit and was also out of character for Sisko, I find, because Siskos actually seems compassionate and how can a compassionate man call a sick man evil?
He never liked Dukat or is actions, but still I never had the feeling Sisko hated him... and calling someone pure evil is hate, without any light left.

And the scene with Dukat and Damar meeting the first time after Ziyals death....yeah, that was a bit dissapointing.
How would you have written the scene, if it had been for you to decite?

TerokNor

Seriously people, if you want to go discuss Dukat please do it in a thread about him. The OP didn't even MENTION Dukat. I think its quite rude to derail his thread just to discuss a topic that's been discussed in dozens of Dukat threads in the past!
 
-facepalm-

I shouldn't have tacked on that last line at all.
Actually the subject had been brought up before that, in the 2nd post of the thread.

Hmm, I don't actually like this one that much. I mean, it's exciting enough, but I have a lot of gripes with it. Jadzia's death felt botched for one thing, but it's the Dukat stuff that really irks me. Blaming Sisko instead of Damar? No, just... no!

But I don't really want to as that has NOTHING to do with Wither's OP, and I'm really surprised that a regular on these forums decided to come along and derail his thread with more inane arguing about Dukat. I liked what they did, you didn't, we get it, can we move on now please?
Actually it does have a lot to do with the OP.

In a non-Catholic Church kind of way...

Tears of the Prophets... this episode is full of moments that have stuck out in my mind over the years. It's one that I watch on repeat as I got to sleep at night. Were I asked I could probably quote the entire episode off the top of my head if given the right motivation (“Quote an entire episode of Deep Space Nine or the granny gets it!”) I love the episode but for years now there have been some elements I've been uncomfortable and in spite of loving the episode those have been my... focus. It's just easier for someone like me to complain than to gush.

So what're these weird occurances that stick out so much? Alright, just for fun-

First, we have the fact that Ross rails Sisko in a conversation in which he basically says “I've had it- You can be a Captain or you can be the Emissary but you can't be both.” He says this after he's just recently awarded Ben the Christopher Pike Medal of Valor. Ross seems to have forgotten that were it not for that dual role the Alpha Quadrant would have been invaded by Dominion reinforcements. Whatever the Admiraltys problem with Sisko as the Emissary it isn't hard to posit that it has done more good than bad.

So, yeah, there's that.

Second we have the people who decided to go to Chintoka and the people who don't For some reason Jadzia stays behind instead of Kira and for some reason Julian stays behind instead of Garak. I know, I know- this was Jadzia's last episode and so they had to write her out somehow. I just think it comes off as a little obvious what was going on. It's a nitpick especially given that the crew on the Defiant/Station never made a whole lot of sense to begin with in the first place.

So, yeah, there's that.

The final thing I have a problem with are the quantum torpedoes. We see one of the orbital weapons platforms take like 6 quantum torpedoes before it finally explodes but then an Excelsior class ship takes one out with two phaser blasts. I was like “Aw, c'mon... it shouldn't work like that.” Again, a nitpick, especially given that the effectiveness of weapons versus one another was never clearly established really anywhere in Trek.

So, yeah, there's that.
Over half of the OP was about the "weird" and illogical stuff in Tears of the Prophets. And IMO, there is nothing more illogical and weird in TOTP than Dukat's role - from blaming Sisko for Ziyal's death, to sealing the wormhole and telling Weyoun and Damar with a straight face that this will be good for the Dominion.

Sorry, I was not aware that this subject was forbidden on this thread. But please, please tell us what we're allowed to talk about? Only the good stuff about Tears of the Prophets? Why didn't you just say it at the start, right after you were appointed the moderator of this thread? :rolleyes: I'll be happy to oblige, there is a lot of good stuff in the episode as well. What was I thinking, commenting on themes that only 3 people had already brought up!
 
First off, thanks Arix, I really appreciate your trying to keep the topic on track. Its just a byproduct of forums that topics skew wildly off target and, based on the sort of ambiguous nature of this particular thread, it isn't surprising that almost immediately started to happen here. Frustrating, of course, but not surprising. So thank you- it'll keep me making random posts for at least a little while longer.

Secondly, I wanted to talk about my most recent moment in DS9 that reaffirmed why I watched the show... not necessarily bash Tears of the Prophets. I only brought up the things I found objectionable because I hate coming off as one of those people who whitewashes the flaws of things they like. I made mention of them specifically to avoid the criticism that "Niners feel DS9 can do no wrong." I don't think that. More to the point I think in spite of those flaws there's something amazing in that particular episode that completely overshadows them and, if you blink, you'll miss it.

Finally, I have no issue talking about Dukat, the Pah-Wraiths, his relationship to Sisko, or the journey the character ultimately took. He was one of my all time favorite Trek characters and is still one of my all time favorite villains. I like him so much in fact I got wasted and decided to do an exposition of the character as best I could. The thread has gotten lost somewhere along the lines but if you're interested in that debate so am I :) You can find it here.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=115677


For me, shows have a moments that bring them a cut above the rest and if they're really good, they're subtle and so not hard to miss. One of the many moments, for me, was in this episode in spite of all the flaws surrounding it and things I wasn't fond of after the fact. That's really why I wrote what I did.




-Withers-​
 
I apologise if I've derailed this thread, which certainly wasn't my intention, but the OP stated his opinion of the episode and a few of its weaknesses, so I assumed it would be appropriate to do the same.
 
Secondly, I wanted to talk about my most recent moment in DS9 that reaffirmed why I watched the show... not necessarily bash Tears of the Prophets. I only brought up the things I found objectionable because I hate coming off as one of those people who whitewashes the flaws of things they like. I made mention of them specifically to avoid the criticism that "Niners feel DS9 can do no wrong." I don't think that. More to the point I think in spite of those flaws there's something amazing in that particular episode that completely overshadows them and, if you blink, you'll miss it.
I understand that you wanted to share this, and it's nice you did, but can I ask what discussion do you expect to come out of that, without anyone facepalming and chiding us for being those horrible people who derail threads? What exactly is the topic? Is it just your personal impression of the episode, or is it episode itself and what each of us likes or dislikes about it? If it is the former, all I can say is:

That's really nice. But I have to say I don't remember that moment, I'll pay attention to it next time I rewatch the episode. Thanks for sharing that with us.

That's it. If we aren't supposed to comment on anything but that particular moment, I don't see much of a discussion coming out of that.

If the topic, however, is the episode itself and what we liked or disliked about it, then how is a discussion about Jadzia's death or Dukat's actions or characterization in the episode derailing the topic?

Tears of the Prophets
is one of those later DS9 episodes that feature some great moments but also some serious flaws. Many of these flaws have already been mentioned. For me, the most serious is, as I said, that nothing Dukat says or does makes any sense.

Jadzia's death was not great, the aftermath of it was well done, with Worf's reaction and Sisko's speech and grief and feelings of failure, however irrational since I don't see what he could have done better to prevent her death.

My favorite scene of the episode:

Weyoun: Pah-wraiths and Prophets. All this talk of gods strikes me as nothing more than superstitious nonsense.
Damar: You believe that the Founders are gods, don't you?
Weyoun: That's different.
Damar: :lol: In what way?
Weyoun: The Founders are gods.
Damar: *humph*

:rommie:
 
No, I'm just happy people reply at all honestly. And creating a thread hardly puts one in charge of it so no worries there. Maybe let me ask you this;


Have you guys ever had a moment, watching DS9, where you saw something and said "That is what makes this show awesome?" Or have you ever watched an episode that once irked you with a few inconsistencies or things that didn't make sense only to watch it a little while later and find there was something in it you absolutely loved?



And I LOL'd pretty hard core at the Weyoun/Damar exchange too- especially when Damar, first thinks its funny and laughs but then realizes hes talking to a religious zealot and won't make any ground in the conversation and so abandons it in an exasperated sigh. Comedy gold... though it is somewhat serious I guess.



-Withers-​
 
Oh I had a lot such moments. Its mostly when the mimic of the characters is so well done, that, besides the words, a whole story is told.... for me these are mostly scenes involving Dukat, Damar, Weyoun, Kira, Garak and also Bashir and O´Brien.
Like the scene when Dukat tells Damar to go and speak with Ziyal... and you see in Damars face, thats really something he do NOT want to do and that he thinks its also not his business and trys to squirm out of it..and than Dukats face, that tells excatly, that he will not allow him to squirm out of what he wants, so he makes it an order...and Damar face just shouts, damn it, now he made it an order, I hate it, I don´t want that, and you see in Damars eyes the fight that goes on, but of course Dukat wins as he is the higher authority.

Or the scene when Damar returns after speaking with Ziyal and stand in the door so embaressed and Dukats very first reaction...its only a second, but in that second we see Dukat speechless. I love that scene.

Or in Image in the sand (I think), when Damar gets a bottle off kanar and a glass and puts it down and the glass makes the tiniest sound...and we see Weyouns face and it is so clear what he thinks, he does not have to turn around to know exactly what Damar will do.

Its actually a bit what you wrote about with that scenes between Miles, Kira and Worf in Tears of the Prophets. Little things, that make the scenes seem real and story telling without much words needed.

Or all the scenes were Kira and Damar meet, like in the security office... those scenes bring so much life and tell so much about the characters and their relationships. Its not "only" the big story about the war, but its also 1000 little stories about the people....and I think DS9 managed that quite well and more intensive than other series.

TerokNor
 
To those who seem to be having issues with other posters in this thread:

Let's try and keep this thread reasonably on topic. Not saying short leaps aren't made all the time on this board - shoot, I've been known to make them myself. However, let's try and keep the discussion on Tears of the Prophets and events in other episodes that immediately impacted the events in TotP or were immediately impacted BY the events in this episode.

Also, I think we can dispense with the snarky remarks, on both sides.

Thanks.
 
First off, thanks Arix, I really appreciate your trying to keep the topic on track. Its just a byproduct of forums that topics skew wildly off target and, based on the sort of ambiguous nature of this particular thread, it isn't surprising that almost immediately started to happen here. Frustrating, of course, but not surprising. So thank you- it'll keep me making random posts for at least a little while longer.

For me, shows have a moments that bring them a cut above the rest and if they're really good, they're subtle and so not hard to miss. One of the many moments, for me, was in this episode in spite of all the flaws surrounding it and things I wasn't fond of after the fact. That's really why I wrote what I did.

I always like reading your posts Withers, and its not often that I find a thread which allows me to discuss those great moments in DS9 and why they make the show great, as opposed to getting caught up in facts or details or debates.

Have you guys ever had a moment, watching DS9, where you saw something and said "That is what makes this show awesome?" Or have you ever watched an episode that once irked you with a few inconsistencies or things that didn't make sense only to watch it a little while later and find there was something in it you absolutely loved?

And I LOL'd pretty hard core at the Weyoun/Damar exchange too- especially when Damar, first thinks its funny and laughs but then realizes hes talking to a religious zealot and won't make any ground in the conversation and so abandons it in an exasperated sigh. Comedy gold... though it is somewhat serious I guess.

I'd go so far as to say that every single episode of DS9 has at least one great character moment in it, even the ones with glaring inconsistencies...

The characters all just played off each other so well! As you said, the Weyoun/Damar exchanges were always fantastic. I honestly can't think of a time where I thought to myself "Oh no, forget these crummy villians, let's go back to the heroes already" - it was always a joy to watch Weyoun, Damar and Dukat interact.

I think that, despite Jadzia's kind of lousy death, it was a really powerful end to the season - especially with Sisko leaving for Earth and taking his baseball with him. If you looked at it solely from a war/military point of view, then the season actually ended with a victory at Chin'toka - but from a character point of view, Jadzia had died, the Wormhole had closed, and because of that Sisko left the station... I know I was certainly eager to start the next season after that!!

It just showed why DS9 was so much more than the Dominion War, right from the start it was a show about the characters - and how the characters reacted to these difficult situations.
 
Personally, to me, Tears of the Prophets started a long chain of "meh" that became the majority of season 7. The deathofJadzia shifted the dynamic of the show and we spent the next months wasting time on Ezri instead of building to the finale, and when the buildup did happen, it was mostly who will Dax 9.0 end up with?
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top