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Is there any Star Trek that is not "canon" for you?

I accept all of produced Trek start to finish as canon in one sense, TAS included though with the understanding that it's somewhat disconnected from later works because of Paramount's disavowal of it.

On the other hand, I don't believe that the sum total of all the created canon is the best or truest version of what the Trek universe can be. Because some of it contradicted previous continuity, and some of it just downright sucked.

I think there's a second kind of 'canon' that's quite different from the sum total of hours of footage you can buy on discs. It's created by the fans, and it's in a constant state of flux, and it's not quite the same for any one viewer, but it very definitely exists.

In literary criticism we sometimes talk about the trinity of the text, the creator, and the reader and look at the different interactions between the three. For things like Trek, I think there's another version of the Text/Reader interaction which is Text/Fandom. In fandom, we dedicate so much time to debating interpretations of the text that we construct a sort of shared map. It's always open to debate and argument, but it can't be redrawn entirely by one fan alone if s/he expects to be able to join in fandom conversation. I think of that as a canon too - the events of the universe of Trek as deduced by fandom through study of the original video footage. It's a kind of open source wiki canon.

On a more personal note, I also have a slightly weird relationship with Nemesis whereby I accept as fact in my head everything that happened there as though it were written in a report, but completely dismiss the entire tone of the thing. B4's discovery? Fine, it's in the logs. Picard tooling around on a dune buggy shooting at the locals? That's a breakdown in communication somewhere.
 
I think there's a second kind of 'canon' that's quite different from the sum total of hours of footage you can buy on discs. It's created by the fans, and it's in a constant state of flux, and it's not quite the same for any one viewer, but it very definitely exists.

Sure. But it needs to be called something besides "canon," because that is not what the word means. (Is that perhaps why you felt it necessary to put those quote marks around "canon"? If so, nice use of punctuation to convey meaning!) I'm all for fluidity in language, up to a point, but in order to communicate, particularly in writing as opposed to speech, you can't use a word any ol' way you want to and be understood.

Anybody besides me reminded of Humpty Dumpty's lecture on language in Alice in Wonderland? Probably not. ;)

Anyway, clearly some fans use "canon" to mean "That part of the Trek universe that I personally like." Well, sorry. The word doesn't mean that. So statements such as "I don't accept this series and this movie and these particular episodes as canon because they suck" are simply not valid. They may indeed suck, but that has nothing to do with their status as canon.

Here's the lesson: Canon doesn't mean "good." Or "bad." "Canon" has no relation to quality at all.

"Canon," by definition, means "source material that is generally accepted as definitive." Note that emphasis on "generally accepted." Where there is no general acceptance, there is no canon. It's as simple as that.

But actually, much as some may dislike it, there is a generally accepted Trek canon - I think the posts in this thread demonstrate that. That it includes elements that most of us like, as well as bits and pieces that many of us dislike is immaterial.
 
I think there's a second kind of 'canon' that's quite different from the sum total of hours of footage you can buy on discs. It's created by the fans, and it's in a constant state of flux, and it's not quite the same for any one viewer, but it very definitely exists.

Sure. But it needs to be called something besides "canon," because that is not what the word means. (Is that perhaps why you felt it necessary to put those quote marks around "canon"? If so, nice use of punctuation to convey meaning!) I'm all for fluidity in language, up to a point, but in order to communicate, particularly in writing as opposed to speech, you can't use a word any ol' way you want to and be understood.

And yet the word 'canon' is being used that way all over the Internet as I type this. One can cry foul on misuse of the word if one wishes, but when the mutation of a term is going on all 'round, it's time to adapt the gloss. I did not invent this use of the word. On fandom boards, on fanfic sites, on LJ, on usenet etc there's a constant elision between using 'canon' to mean the official texts, and 'canon' to mean the interpretation of those texts agreed upon (or disputed by) the fans.

Using the most simple definition of the word, I can say things like "'Starship Mine' is canon". That's a simple statement about the fact that such an episode exists, and is part of the recorded material that physically makes up Trek. But if I say that it's canon that Picard keeps a saddle on the Enterprise I'm invoking a substantially different meaning of the word. It's a signifier for a much murkier abstract entity than 5 TV shows +11 movies. Yet just about anyone who's active in fandom at all would understand the gist of what I meant by use of the word there.

And the Humpty Dumpty conversation is from Through the Looking Glass. :p
 
^ Ooh, good catch re. Humpty Dumpty - my apologies!

I know you aren't the one propagating the dilution of canon's meaning, SiorX - I'm sorry if I seemed to be implying that you were. I've seen it used/misused all over the place, too. But the thing is...that's really the issue. It's where much of the debate comes from - from some people using the real (my emphasis ;) ) definition and others using their own personal idiosyncratic definitions. How can we agree, or even talk about, what is and isn't canon if we can't even agree what canon means? It makes any argument on the subject meaningless because we actually aren't arguing about the same things. We in fact can't discuss it in any meaningful way at all.

A discussion of whether something is canon or not is simply a completely different discussion from whether something is good or not.

I wonder if other entertainment franchises have the same problems? In some cases, they don't - Sherlockians, for example, agree that if Arthur Conan Doyle wrote it, it's canon; if he didn't, it isn't. As far as I know, it's just that cut and dried, though no doubt they have a few things they argue about as well, because what's the fun in dedicating yourself to a fictional universe if you don't have something to disagree about? But I don't know about other franchises.
 
Things could be worse for Trek's canonuity. Just look at the ALIEN(S) films:eek:

Their canonuity is stuck with the disappointing alien 3, the horrendous alien resurrection, & the abominable avp & avp:r:brickwall:

Avp & avp:r do a terrible disservice to the ALIEN(S) film canonuity & an even bigger disservice to the PREDATOR series canonuity:wtf:

At least ALIEN(S) got a lackluster 3rd film & a fecal 4th movie. PREDATOR never saw a 3rd film:wtf:

I like to pretend alien 3,rez,avp & avp:r NEVER HAPPENED.

Back to primary topic, love it or leave it, ALL onscreen Trek {TV series, films, & whatever STPTB find useful from TAS} is canonuity. Which is a bumber & sucks for we aficionados.

Sorry but that's how the cookies crumbling.
 
Things could be worse for Trek's canonuity. Just look at the ALIEN(S) films:eek:

Their canonuity is stuck with the disappointing alien 3, the horrendous alien resurrection, & the abominable avp & avp:r:brickwall:

Avp & avp:r do a terrible disservice to the ALIEN(S) film canonuity & an even bigger disservice to the PREDATOR series canonuity:wtf:

At least ALIEN(S) got a lackluster 3rd film & a fecal 4th movie. PREDATOR never saw a 3rd film:wtf:

I like to pretend alien 3,rez,avp & avp:r NEVER HAPPENED.

Back to primary topic, love it or leave it, ALL onscreen Trek {TV series, films, & whatever STPTB find useful from TAS} is canonuity. Which is a bumber & sucks for we aficionados.

Sorry but that's how the cookies crumbling.

200% with you on the ALIEN series!

It's a study in how to kill a franchise.

AvP:R was TERRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My God, what a horrible movie!

The only good ones were 1 and 2. The only thing they could do to ruin this film franchise further would be do ALIEN: THE TV SERIES!

Ridley Scott had a great idea for an ALIEN film, but stupid Fox decided to make AvP instead.

Stooooopid!!!!
 
I actually prefer adding to canon. Boston Legal? Shatner was playing Kirk, it's canon. Leonard Nimoy, canon. Patrick Stewart is canon, but that's all. The rest of the actors are not. Trekkies who dress up as Klingons are canon (only if they are attractive). The Star Trek Christmas ornament commercials that Hallmark used to make? Canon.
 
Personally, I consider both TAS and ENT as apocryphal--they happened all right, but kind of differently for me. I don't tend to discuss them too much...
 
I actually prefer adding to canon. Boston Legal? Shatner was playing Kirk, it's canon. Leonard Nimoy, canon. Patrick Stewart is canon, but that's all. The rest of the actors are not. Trekkies who dress up as Klingons are canon (only if they are attractive). The Star Trek Christmas ornament commercials that Hallmark used to make? Canon.

Normally I am a canon hardliner, but this is a change I can approve of, because it means that my Shuttlecraft Galileo (with a recording of Spock's voice), my Data-at-the-helm, and my Romulan warbird ornaments? All canon. Woo-hoo!
 
Canon, as stated above, is the definitive source material, i.e. stuff that appeared on-screen. Thus, ENT, "Threshold," TNG S1, "Spock's Brain," "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." etc. are ALL canon, while such wonderful things as the DS9R books or Destiny are not canon. That's all that can be said; like it or not, those things are part of canon. (Of course, that's not to say that a certain amount of retconning won't go on even within canon, producing such quandaries as disco-ball-pink Klingon blood and so forth. But generally, what is told on screen is what happens, unless something later on screen contradicts it, in which case we all have a great time trying to square the circle in our heads.)

But there's always room for "I reject your reality and substitute my own," type thinking. I have room for myriad universes in my mind. Thus, I can happily read licensed Trek fic without my life being ruined if on-screen-type-things later contradict it; if they were to film a DS9 movie tomorrow without any of the Relaunch changes being taken into account, I would have room for both that hypothetical movie and the DS9R books in my mind. They occur in parallel universes. Which universe is more real than the other? Does it matter? As long as I'm entertained, as long as these are still the characters I like and want to read/see stories about, does it matter? Ultimately, to me, "what really happened in the canon timeline" doesn't matter so much. I guess you could call it the IDIC principle.

I will go see the Abrams film without caring what it does to canon or Chekov's age or the look of the Enterprise or the location of the Enterprise's construction or whatever. I don't care. Does it entertain me? If it does, yay, I'll be happier with that, however non-canon-adherent, than I was with NEM or INS or ENT or VOY. (Now, if there's a show I would love to see reimagined - reimagined from the ground-up like BSG was reimagined - it would be VOY. So much wasted potential!)

Ultimately, whenever I think of canon debates, Garak quotes tend to come to mind, particularly this one:

"Of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which weren't?"
"They were all true."
"Even the lies?"
"Especially the lies."
 
I think it's quite sad that people consider things they don't like as non-canon.

Every episode of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT and all ten (soon to be 11) movies are canon. That's the bottom line.
 
TATV - that was a holodeck "history" program that got it all wrong or malfunctioned. The character of Trip wouldn't have died in such a stupid fashion - he was too smart for that.

I could say a lot about the fiction universe not being canon, but then the authors would sharpen their blades once more and I'm tired of bleeding.
 
I accept all of produced Trek start to finish as canon in one sense, TAS included though with the understanding that it's somewhat disconnected from later works because of Paramount's disavowal of it.

Funny how they "avowed" it enough to sell the episodes on DVD! :shifty:

It's canon to me...except Slaver Weapon because of Larry Niven's Kzinti being it. Niven has his canon and Trek has its...neither shall the two mix.

And if anyone else says Spock's Brain is not canon -- I'll shoot em with a phaser cannon! (which is also canon!) :-)
 
Gene Roddenberry declared The Animated Series, and all books/comics not-canon. His judgment is good enough for me. And although I don't like Enterprise and didn't care for Voyager, they are still canon.

It remains to be seen whether the new movie will be accepted as canon by the fans.
 
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