Is the Dominion actually weak?

[Hando]

As we learned, hardly any Jem'Hadar lives past 15 years and none lives past 30.

As a Jem'Hadar matures within 3 days, this points to significant military loses.

And as the Dominion is based in the Gamma Quadrant, does it mean that it is in a constant state of war with other GQ powers?

What powers exactly (I guess the novels identify one such power as the Ascendants)? And if they are still fighting, does it mean that they hove a numerical or technological advantage?


A limiting factor of the Dominion expansion could be the peak production and distribution of ketracel-white and perhaps the fixed population of the Vortas. Does these mean that there is a limit as to Dominion expansion?

 

[Marc Voorhees]

There might be a genetic flaw built in that limits the number of 'Honored Elders' among the Jem Hadar. This would serve multiple purposes, 1) keeps the volume of soldiers down while still keeping the ranks fresh 2) creates a status among the troop that breeds the whole 'victory is life' thing

Due to these potential factors, I would say that expansion is not checked by large numbers of 'pensioners' as it were

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Ketracel White would be more of a vulnerability rather than a limiting factor. Neither cutting off the supply from the Gamma Quadrant nor destroying new factories in the Alpha Quadrant threatened supply in the long term. Indeed, the Dominion proved able to reestablish all of its production for soldiers and ships when separated from the home planet.

 

[Timo]

As we learned, hardly any Jem'Hadar lives past 15 years and none lives past 30. As a Jem'Hadar matures within 3 days, this points to significant military loses.

I don't quite understand the connection. Humans die within about 70 years. Vulcans die within about 200 years? Does this point to significant military losses? Insignificant ones? How and why?

The Dominion would certainly benefit from having soldiers who have no future. Why rebel and take over the universe if you only at best have ten years of reign to look forward to, and no sons to carry on your great heritage?

As for wars in Gamma, Weyoun was in a position to claim that the Dominion had "endured for 2,000 years" ("To the Death") and has "never surrendered in battles since its founding 10,000 years ago" ("The Dogs of War"). He never claimed those millennia would have been conflict-free, though, and the wording he chooses ("endure" and "never surrender") rather suggests the opposite. If the Dominion ruled without contest, surely Weyoun would choose to boast on that?

Then again, Weyoun is in this position because nobody can go to Gamma to check his facts...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hando]

As we learned, hardly any Jem'Hadar lives past 15 years and none lives past 30. As a Jem'Hadar matures within 3 days, this points to significant military loses.

I don't quite understand the connection. Humans die within about 70 years. Vulcans die within about 200 years? Does this point to significant military losses? Insignificant ones? How and why?

The Dominion would certainly benefit from having soldiers who have no future. Why rebel and take over the universe if you only at best have ten years of reign to look forward to, and no sons to carry on your great heritage?

Perhaps I took some loops there, so let's check it again.
Both Memories and my understanding of the comment in "To the Death" that the low life expectancy of the Jem'Hadar is because they die in battle. As they are slave soldiers that would seem correct.

As to the significant military losses, these for me are based on the max time to replace a soldier. For a human it would be 15-20 years. While for the Jem'Hadar it is only 3 days. Let's throw the Klingons into the mix, for them it would take 8 years.
This says to me that during an equal amount of time the Jem'Hadar can replace more soldiers then any other race.


Also let's consider the following simplified scenario: All Jem'Hadar die at 15. This means that every 15 years the whole Jem'Hadar population needs to be exchanged.
For comparison, if the population of the Jem'Hadar were 225 million, the death/time would be equal to the World Wars.

Am I reaching?

As for wars in Gamma, Weyoun was in a position to claim that the Dominion had "endured for 2,000 years" ("To the Death") and has "never surrendered in battles since its founding 10,000 years ago" ("The Dogs of War"). He never claimed those millennia would have been conflict-free, though, and the wording he chooses ("endure" and "never surrender") rather suggests the opposite. If the Dominion ruled without contest, surely Weyoun would choose to boast on that?

Then again, Weyoun is in this position because nobody can go to Gamma to check his facts...

Timo Saloniemi

Well yes, but during the time when the Dominion was introduced and the Dominion war started, there was no mention of any powers opposed to the Dominion, no attempt was made to meet them...
Or were attempts made and we just do not know about them?

 

[Timo]

The contrast between "endured for 2,000 years" and "founded 10,000 years ago" might suggest that most of the threats to Dominion existence have come from the most recent two millennia. Might be the Dominion was peanuts until 2,000 years ago, and only expanded to meet challengers after that date. Or then every individual incarnation of Weyoun is given a different line of propaganda to sprout...

Was there opposition? We hear of the T-Rogorans retreating and driving out the Skreeans - but the latter act gives them combat capabilities, which they would probably have put to use against the Dominion initially as well. The Jem'Hadar also manage to maintain their reputation, a difficult task if there is no action for several (victim) generations in any given region. But that could be from police action unrelated to military resistance of worth.

Attempts to contact enemies of the Dominion were never mentioned. But attempts to contact victims (that is, subjects) were made, and may have been far more useful strategically. If the Karemma stopped providing torpedoes, how long would the existing stock last? Would the Jem'Hadar have robust sources, or would they rely on Karemma loyalty?

Also let's consider the following simplified scenario: All Jem'Hadar die at 15. This means that every 15 years the whole Jem'Hadar population needs to be exchanged.
For comparison, if the population of the Jem'Hadar were 225 million, the death/time would be equal to the World Wars.

But death/time for any society is more or less total population/day anyway, by an equally valid definition. Or total population/second. It's not a batch process, but a steady state one, after all. Fatality in humanoids tends to be 100%, and even if the Jem'Hadar don't lead long lives, there's nothing spectacular about that. Say, the Ocampa die younger, and supposedly there are zero military losses.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Also let's consider the following simplified scenario: All Jem'Hadar die at 15. This means that every 15 years the whole Jem'Hadar population needs to be exchanged.
For comparison, if the population of the Jem'Hadar were 225 million, the death/time would be equal to the World Wars.

Am I reaching?

If we were talking about mammalian reproduction, no. Given that they do not gestate within a carrier, their ability to reproduce is not dependent on their biological energy. Their reproduction, then, is more like agriculture.

 

[RoJoHen]

As to the significant military losses, these for me are based on the max time to replace a soldier. For a human it would be 15-20 years. While for the Jem'Hadar it is only 3 days. Let's throw the Klingons into the mix, for them it would take 8 years.
This says to me that during an equal amount of time the Jem'Hadar can replace more soldiers then any other race.

Certainly the Dominion would have higher death rate than other armies. However, I don't think they would view this as a "military loss." The Jem Hadar are just a resource, a weapon to be manufactured. No more or less expendable than ammunition.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I got the impression in the show that the Founders are not accustomed to genuine resistance to them. I don't think they have serious adversaries in the GQ though it's possible. But maybe the reason they lost to the Federation is that they assumed they could win by sheer overpowering numerical force.

I imagine in the GQ, they've got changeling spies in the high ranks of any border powers and are able to cut off any kind of resistance before it can even gain political force. Just like they replaced Martok they've probably replaced the leaders of nearby powers.

 

[Arpy]

We've never seen any white-haired Jem'Hadar, so I don't think they run a normal life-cycle in shorter time-span. They could be engineered like Roy Batty in Bladrunner to just shut off after a few years, but then why would there be "honored elders" past 15 or even mention that none reach 30? It's not that they haven't "reached" 30; they can't be 30.

I'm inclined to go with your initial idea, Hando - that they die in battle before aging. Isn't that what was hinted at in the series?

The Dominion took a while to show themselves and then were pretty clever about making deals and reeking havoc without the use of force (making you think they're less wasteful that way than say the Klingons) but once they committed, they waged massive war with multiple galactic powers. Maybe the Jem'Hadar do die in battle on the vast stretches of the Dominion.

...or maybe the Vorta have them train to the death to weed out the weak and then splice the genes of the strong together in subsequent batches?

God that's so arch...

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

During relative peace time they might engage in lethal training exercise that only the very best survive.

Otherwise their tactics amount to overwhelm by superior numbers with suicide attacks if necessary. That alone will take a out a huge number of them every now and then.

Never surrendering doesn't mean they never lost.

 

[Timo]

Well, we know that survival is one possible malfunction mode in a Jem'Hadar: a genetic hiccup saved Goran'Agar in "Hippocratic Oath". That, and the fact that he malfunctioned on a distant planet. Similar occurrences within the Dominion are probably dealt with swiftly: "Aran'Gokar was just sent on an important mission, oops, and died two seconds into it. You are the new First, Agon'Rakar." But the Dominion would need a way to deal with intermediate cases, too - people who are too distant from the Dominion to be immediately eliminated, but too close for the rumors to be successfully contained. And preemptively calling the freaks "honored elders" would be a clever way to do that...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JediKnightButler]

Wasn't the GQ in a state of relative "peace" with the Dominion being the occupying power of several planets- sort of like the Empire? They didn't seem to be in significant conflict with anybody prior to their incursions into the AQ

 

[Saturn0660]

I always liked to think of the Jem'Hadar as something along the lines of the Zentraedi. Endless number.. Made for combat.. Nothing else. a few have lives a "long time". But they mostly fight hard and die fast. So is the way of life.

 

[Timo]

Wasn't the GQ in a state of relative "peace" with the Dominion being the occupying power of several planets- sort of like the Empire? They didn't seem to be in significant conflict with anybody prior to their incursions into the AQ

"Sanctuary" suggested that they were in the process of expanding, and driving other cultures ahead of them. And "Jem'Hadar" had their spy use this expansion as her cover story, so it's not a fact the Dominion would have wanted to downplay, either.

I gather there is no such thing as peace for the Dominion, not until it has successfully subjugated every Solid culture in the galaxy. And at that point, it will probably set its sights farther, at non-Solid cultures or other galaxies. The latter are mere centuries away at high warp, after all, while the Founders are quite used to a form of space travel that takes centuries (cf. the Hundred).

Whether the Dominion is facing stiff resistance at any front, we don't know - which is not surprising, considering how the Dominion controls the flow of information. What the Alpha cultures did in the somewhat inappropriately named "Dominion War" might not qualify as stiff resistance, really, as they only ever held back an isolated beachhead force. If facing the actual Dominion war machine, they might well have folded like protein. Which in turn makes it dubious that any Solid culture could be a serious military opponent to the Dominion... But they may be in trouble with beyond-Solid enemies such as the Borg or any of the "ascended" lifeforms of Organian ilk.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Walker]

Re: tech levels

Not sure exactly how the Dominion's level would be classified, but they did seem to have a technological edge compared to the Federation.

Enough of an edge as to make the Dominion difficult to fight.

The Borg seemed to have an even higher tech level than the Dominion, so I think that the Dominion would be in trouble if the Borg found them.

Actually, I suspect that if the gap in technology/capability is too great, resistance would be futile.

 

[jim-jean-ben]

the dominion, well has dominion over the solids. So they only need to make x Jem'Hadar to ensure dominion.

i think any solid cultures they meet have a few options. Join the Dominion or be destroyed. So even if there are no wars, they still need a minimum compliment of Jem'Hadar. Any standing army has to be based on overall needs. Wartime means more Jem factories.

 

[MacLeod]

I got the impression in the show that the Founders are not accustomed to genuine resistance to them. I don't think they have serious adversaries in the GQ though it's possible. But maybe the reason they lost to the Federation is that they assumed they could win by sheer overpowering numerical force.

I imagine in the GQ, they've got changeling spies in the high ranks of any border powers and are able to cut off any kind of resistance before it can even gain political force. Just like they replaced Martok they've probably replaced the leaders of nearby powers.

And of course it can be far easier to squash an emerging power before they become a threat, rather than to elimante a more eastablished power with roughly equal technology.

Sure the Dominion might have had a slight edge prior to the war breaking out such as Federation shields being useless against their weapons, but once the Federation improved their shields that advantage was nullifed, same goes with the Breen Energy dampening weapon.

The Dominion initally appeared to have an advantage in sure terms of numbers, it wasn't until the Romulans joined that numerical advantage was negated. As for the reasons for this it's seems as if the Dominion had only a few types of ship, compared to the numerous designs the Federation had. It can be far eeasir to crank out a single design in large numbers i.e. the Liberty ships in WWII. One must also factor into account their can be a tendancy to design ships based upon current threats, in the case of the Federation at the time of TNG there wasn't really any threats, the Romulans had retreated into their territories, there was a few border skirmishs as well as the Cardassian War.

As we move into TNG, Q introduces the Federation to the Borg which looks like it caused a shift in development in terms of weapons and ships to counter this new threat. By the time the Dominion war kicked off most of these developments had come online. Placing the Federation in a far stronger position than i would have been.