Is the bridge at a funny angle?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Mike Doyle, Dec 17, 2020.

  1. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    As I recall, Franz Joseph had those openings to closets and ladderways essentially. I would also suggest shuttle fuel storage, based on details of the miniature set.

    --Alex
     
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  2. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  3. Smirky-Spock

    Smirky-Spock Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Unfortunately, Jefferies' conceptual sketches are not seen-on-screen, so, keeping the hangar bay behind the engine pylons is not needed. Awhile back, I crudely placed the seen-on-screen Datin Model dimensions (assumed the values to be the external-most dimensions of the wooden base) in the Engineering Hull. Crammed into a 947' ship (340' Engineering Hull), extends the hangar bay completely under the engine pylons. And yes, the side "hatches" go to narrow passages.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  4. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Interesting how well it almost fits...
     
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  5. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Franz Joseph had the Hangar Deck extend just past the pylons, a lot like that.
     
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  6. Smirky-Spock

    Smirky-Spock Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    I'm unsure as to how Datin measured the model. What was the 60" dimension, exactly? Same with the 122" and 76" dimensions. Was it built with force perspective? I remember that it was not. I think the Shuttlecraft model comes in around 22 ft. which is more in line with Jefferies' shuttle drawings. In TGS, Kirk says on-screen that the Shuttlecraft is 24 ft.; so, should we enlarge just the shuttle by 9-10% or enlarge everything, i.e. the ship, by 9-10% making the Enterprise 1033-1042 ft.? :shrug:

    Rethinking the canned film of the hangar bay and shuttlecraft launch and landings, it would have better not to have a registry number and name on the port side of the shuttle so that every shuttle is not the Galileo. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  7. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Here's the extract from page 85 of Datin's book:

    The scale of the model was 1"=1'0" while the drawing was drawn to a scale of 1/8"=1'0". According to my figures, the flight deck was 10'-2" long, 6'-4" wide by 3'-2" high at the inboard end and 5'-0" wide and 2'-5" high at the outboard, where the clamshell doors were located. The model was based on drawing No. 6149-14 perhaps drawn by Matt, or someone under his supervision.​

    The flight deck was not built with forced perspective.

    I seem to recall that the full sized shuttle prop had a shorter angled nose than the miniature and a comparison would seem to bear that out, although perhaps not enough to account for the 2-foot difference in purported lengths:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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  8. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Commander Red Shirt

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    The blue area from the set looks to fit pretty close, but then my question would be: what is the math for the height of the room? In other words, supposing that the bay is under the pylons, how much space is left for what diameter plasma transfer conduits? The answer might inform some of our previous discussions about the size, location, forced perspective, and funcation of the Engine Room(s), especially during Scotty's last-minute repair of the ship in a service crawl-way near the end of "That Which Survives."
     
  9. Smirky-Spock

    Smirky-Spock Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    The bay's inside fit is probably better than I showed, above. The given dimensions could be to the outside of the small end "support rib" as seen in the top photos, and to the outside of the wooden flange as seen in the bottom photo. I'm just eyeballing the thickness of the flanges and they could be larger than I show. I heard that Jefferies spent a lot of time working on the dimensions/scale of this model, and I think it fits quite well. :techman: Here's my corrected "conceptual" fit (lighter blue portion represents the inside shape of the hangar bay):
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Commander Red Shirt

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    I really like this diagram. So that would mean that there is room for plasma transfer conduits about the size of the nacelles on the shuttle, maybe bigger if the are running through the silver indentations along the outsides of the white lit area at the top. Maybe that is why the indentations are there, that is, to look like brackets to mount the pylons, or to serve as a shield at the outside of the conduits.
     
  11. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree it's a reasonable assumption that Datin would quote the measurements for the outer flange (at the door end) since it would match up pretty well with the outer wall of those 4 alcoves. However, the outside of the model was pretty uneven!
    [​IMG]
    In addition, the width/height ratio of 60/29 only really works if the inner walls are used - using the extremes of the outer flange (at the doors end), the width/height is more like 60/33.
    Here's what I found:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Obviously there's margins of error when using non straight-on shadowy screencaps in this manner, but there is a general pattern here.
     
  12. Smirky-Spock

    Smirky-Spock Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Looking at your second photo, it appears that the flight deck is offset ~one foot up if we assume the aft end of the ship is round. I still think the outer width on the small end is the 60" dimension as shown in your bottom photo. In my model of the hangar, I put the inner hull width at 50' which gives room behind the wall for ladder access to the two aft control booths. I wish the original model survived. :weep:
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  13. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Some thoughts;

    Should we be concerned about power conduits considering that that sort of thing hadn't been thought of at the time?

    Originally, the nacelles were supposed to be self-contained propulsion units.

    Also, we should probably keep in mind that in the original script for "That Which Survives" had Scotty and his crawl-way inside a nacelle, which is the way Geoffrey Mandel's plans show it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  14. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A few years back Blssdwlf recreated the flight deck in 3D calculated from the screencaps
    https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/blssdwlfs-tos-enterprise-wip.119751/page-39
    The length came out at 124' which is incredibly close to the 122' which Datin stated, so it would be interesting to know what width he ended up with (at the doors end).
    @blssdwlf do you still have access to that info?

    True, the term "pod" only ever referred to the nacelles in TOS so that's what Scotty meant when he kept on pleading for Spock to eject the pod.
     
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  15. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, I always thought a jettisonable pod was the little chamber a man was inside of, both in "Court Martial" and "That Which Survives."

    Also, Scotty can't be fixing the fuel flow of only one nacelle in "That Which Survives," because that would do nothing for the other one. He has to be in a central location, in the secondary hull.

    And Kirk calls the engines "nacelles" in "The Apple" when he's telling Scotty to leave them behind if necessary.
     
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  16. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I always wondered what that would look like. Would the nacelles shoot off leaving the pylons, or would they detach too?
     
  17. Dr. Kravaal

    Dr. Kravaal Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe at either end, just in case...the pylon spinning away perhaps hitting any pursuers
     
  18. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I picture the ion pod as being a small one-man spherical craft, like a bathysphere as designed by Matt Jefferies.
     
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  19. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Yep, still have the model. What points would you like measured?
     
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  20. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True but that was specifically called out as an "ion" pod and only in that specific circumstance. The rest of the time, whenever "the pods" are mentioned it is to refer to the entire nacelles, not a small container within them.
    The term "nacelles" is used in other episodes as well. Nacelles/pods are interchangeable terms and refer to the same things.

    Not if only one of them was faulty. TOS episodes were written under the notion that all the dangerous stuff (antimatter, reaction chamber etc) were contained within the nacelles, so jettisoning one which developed a fault would make sense.
    The earlier episode drafts detailed this more, but some things got lost during rewrites.

    Here's how the Revised Story Outline for "Survival" (August 8, 1968) describes the situation:
    The matter-antimatter control is inoperative; it has been inexplicably and totally destroyed. Scott can fix it, if he begins now... but he might not have enough time. The area where he must work is tight and cramped -- room for just one man. Scott scrambles in and gets to work. The uncontrolled matter-antimatter mixture that provides warp power is almost out of control and will explode in ten minutes -- more or less. At this point, it's impossible to tell -- and just one man can do the job: Scott. Kirk clears the entire "disposable" warp nacelle area, moving all personnel into the saucer section. If they must jettison the nacelles, it is understood by both Scott and Kirk that Scott might not have the time to get out before the thing blows.

    And here's how the relevant part appears in the First Draft of "That Which Survives" (September 9, 1968):
    INT. CRAWLWAY - CLOSE - SCOTT
    SCOTT: All right, Mr. Spock, I'm now opening the access panel to the magnetic flow valve itself. Keep your eye on the dial. If there's a jump in magnetic flow you must jettison me and the entire matter-antimatter nacelle immediately. It will blow in two seconds after the rupture of the magnetic field.

    Bearing these in mind it's easy to see how the more simplified final version got where it did and what the intention was behind the dialogue that ended up on our screens
    (thanks to @alchemist for those draft extracts)
     
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