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Is 'Star Trek' science fiction?

FeanorLobelia

Ensign
Newbie
I really wanted to like this new movie. But it is an empty action flick, with no science fiction involved.:(

Science fiction introduces scientific concepts, real or speculative, in detail and explores their social, political and emotional consequences. It has meaning. Depth.

When Dax is struggling to deal with her past lives, that's sci fi. When Organians demonstrate the primitiveness of humans and klingons, that's sci fi. When Picard has to prove that Data is sentient, that's sci fi. The Borg are not just villains - the reality is their cyborg, joint human-machine nature is fundamentally sci fi.

Abrams' Trek wonderfully visualises these characters. Quinto is great. So is Pine, and so is Urban...etc. etc. The acting is outstanding. But there's nothing beyind that. Great characters and great effects. Apart from that, nothing. There's nary a pretence at meaningful dialogue, just quips, and the plot is so weak (Vulcan is destroyed...Kirk is exiled....Nero is defeated).

But where's the science fiction? Is this a space fantasy like Star Wars? (actually it's worse than Star Wars; SW was had amazing spiritualist elements, ST just has mindless explosions)

Even The Final Frontier had interesting ideas in it. Kirk's stalwart devotion to empirical, scientific values of the enlightenment (starfleet principles, in other words) contrasts with the medievalist faith of the others, and saves them in the end. Classic Alien/God tension (e.g. DS9) Crap movie, but it was sci fi.

Even rubbish Nemesis was sci fi. The thread throughout - to what extent can a clone (B4, Shinzon) be 'me'?

And the much overlooked The Voyage Home is one of the finest examples of environmental sci fi ever seen on screen. The idea that whales have a connection with something 'alien' - that their exstinction is significant, that humans are not the only advance life on earth; it's brilliant. And funny and fun at the same time.

I'm not saying action isn't good. It is, and almost every good novel or film has action and tension and so on. Yet this film goes overboard. It is totally, totally dumb - and, is only tolerable as an action movie, since the motives, nature, and portrayal of the villain were unconvincing at best.

When I compare this to The Cage, I despair. Now that was action packed and thoughtful at the same time. It was about exploration, and new worlds. This film had nothing to do with that.

PLUS, a bit off topic, there was no idealism. Captain Pine is fairly neanderthal towards Chekhov, getting his name wrong, as if he's this strange Russian guy in a monoethnic crew. Roddeberry's vision was that the world would be unified to the point where that wouldn't happen.

Anyway, rant over. Do you think STAR TREK is sci fi?
 
Hmm..let me see..Space ships, space battles, teleportation, spider-like monsters running around the snowy planet..hmm...I'll take a leap of faith here and say: YES! :D
 
Science fiction introduces scientific concepts, real or speculative, in detail and explores their social, political and emotional consequences. It has meaning. Depth.
So Star trek in all its filmed forms in not science fiction. Thanks for clearing that up.:techman:
 
I've always seen as there being two sub-genres: "science-fiction" and "sci-fi." Star Trek has pretty much always been the latter save TMP and a select few episodes.
 
When Dax is dealing with her past lives that is more of a fantasy type of story element than science fiction.
 
This is my biggest problem with all of modern Trek. Back in the day they got real SF writers -- Harlan Ellison, Theodore Sturgeon, David Gerrold -- and highly respected SF writers like James Blish were doing book adaptions. This is what Star Trek is missing today. I hope for the next reboot we get some real SF stories. I( don't expect it anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy we've got Kirk and Spock back. I'm glad we got a reboot. Two out three of my wants ain't bad. Plus I certainly wasn't expecting any monumental SF work like 2001 when I sat down in the theater with my popcorn and nachos. So I wasn't disappointed when I didn't get it. It was a fun movie for what it was, and I hope now that the time travel nonsense is done we get do some more interesting things with the characters in the next movie. I can forgive the lack of a compelling SF story if we get some really nice character stuff.
 
'So Star trek in all its filmed forms in not science fiction. Thanks for clearing that up'

'I've always seen as there being two sub-genres: "science-fiction" and "sci-fi." Star Trek has pretty much always been the latter save TMP and a select few episodes.'

Most of Star Trek had a damn good deal more SF than this action movie, and I would hope that you would respect that to some extent. I'm a Trekkie becuase Trek is fun yet intelligent sci fi; just look at most episodes of the original series (which were often written by real SF writers), TNG, DS9... Exploring matriarchal societies, looking at cloning, superior life forms, imagining humanity's future and possibility, living another man's life in two seconds, social parallels ('Let this be your last Battlefield' et al.)

Many of the movies as I explained above actually have a lot of sci-fi (ironically TMP is just slow, not cerebral. It has little sci-fi, it just appears that it does because it's slow).

'When Dax is dealing with her past lives that is more of a fantasy type of story element than science fiction. '

No, that's exploring the tantalising idea of being a symbiotic life form, of having a quality of existence different from our own. It may be fantastical, but not fantasy (which concentrates on Homerian esque epics of good vs. evil, conflcit, spirituality, hope, destiny etc.)

I hope for the next reboot we get some real SF stories

I hope so too.
 
Science fiction introduces scientific concepts, real or speculative, in detail and explores their social, political and emotional consequences. It has meaning. Depth.

No, that's just one very narrow and rather self-congratulatory definition of science fiction.

The events in this movie turn on the fact that several of the characters travel through time. That's sf/fantasy - you might consider it lowest-common-denominator sf, but it's sf nonetheless.

Trek's stories have virtually never qualified as "hard sf" and its treatment of sf and fantasy concepts has, since the beginning, tended toward the superficial (ie "This Side Of Paradise," "The Doomsday Machine" and so forth). Once in a great while, as with "Amok Time," it's been a bit thoughtful. But this movie qualifies as fully as science fiction as most Star Trek episodes and movies, and considerably more so than some (such as "The Undiscovered Country").

As for idealism - this version of Trek's future is pretty much the standard-issue Trek future with a new coat of paint, and is as idealistic as Trek ever is. The only sense in which it might falter is if one's sole criterion for idealism is "everybody plays nice all the time" and that's pretty nonsensical.
 
American Heritage Dictionary:
A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

Here are a number of authors' definitions:
http://scifi.about.com/od/scififantasy101/a/SCIFI_defs.htm

Some examples which at a glance had some contrasting elements:
Isaac Asimov
Modern science fiction is the only form of literature that consistently considers the nature of the changes that face us, the possible consequences, and the possible solutions.
That branch of literature which is concerned with the impact of scientific advance upon human beings.
-- (1952)

Ray Bradbury
Science fiction is really sociological studies of the future, things that the writer believes are going to happen by putting two and two together.

Frank Herbert
Science fiction represents the modern heresy and the cutting edge of speculative imagination as it grapples with Mysterious Time---linear or non-linear time.
Our motto is Nothing Secret, Nothing Sacred.

Brian Stableford
What is authentic about genuine science fiction, is that the science fiction writer should not stop with just saying: Well, the plot needs this to happen, therefore I'll just do it and I'll invent an excuse for it being able to be done. Proper science fiction ought to require people to begin to explore the consequences of what they've invented. And thus, I think that science fiction is, in a real sense, capable of being scientific. Not in the sense that it can foresee the future of science, but it can adopt a kind of variation of the scientific method itself, it does feel compelled to explore the consequences of hypotheses and the way things fit together.
-- (from an interview on Science in SF, ConFuse 91)

Theodore Sturgeon
A science fiction story is a story built around human beings, with a human problem and a human solution, which would not have happened at all without its scientific content.
-- Definition given by: William Atheling Jr., (James Blish) in The issue at Hand: Studies in Contemporary Magazine Fiction (Chicago, 1964)

My feeling is that STXI is sci-fi; it's a good film, but it's not partiularly strong or original sci-fi. In some ways its as good as STIV, and in others, worse than NEM.
Now that I've seen STXI a couple of times, and a few weeks have gone by, I can't see how I could possibly give it an "A" ranking. Not with that same, tired, variation-on-a-theme villain concept, and yes, it is lacking in hard sci-fi (I think intentionally). I think for me STXI is a B+.
 
I was surprised, but my 14 YO son, who loves science, and was a Trek virgin, came out of the theater thinking about and commenting upon the science in the film. That is what got him interested. If you think about it, it was more science oriented than almost all movies out there that classify themselves as science fiction.
 
I really wanted to like this new movie. But it is an empty action flick, with no science fiction involved.:(

Science fiction introduces scientific concepts, real or speculative, in detail and explores their social, political and emotional consequences. It has meaning. Depth.

When Dax is struggling to deal with her past lives, that's sci fi. When Organians demonstrate the primitiveness of humans and klingons, that's sci fi. When Picard has to prove that Data is sentient, that's sci fi. The Borg are not just villains - the reality is their cyborg, joint human-machine nature is fundamentally sci fi.

Abrams' Trek wonderfully visualises these characters. Quinto is great. So is Pine, and so is Urban...etc. etc. The acting is outstanding. But there's nothing beyind that. Great characters and great effects. Apart from that, nothing. There's nary a pretence at meaningful dialogue, just quips, and the plot is so weak (Vulcan is destroyed...Kirk is exiled....Nero is defeated).

But where's the science fiction? Is this a space fantasy like Star Wars? (actually it's worse than Star Wars; SW was had amazing spiritualist elements, ST just has mindless explosions)

Even The Final Frontier had interesting ideas in it. Kirk's stalwart devotion to empirical, scientific values of the enlightenment (starfleet principles, in other words) contrasts with the medievalist faith of the others, and saves them in the end. Classic Alien/God tension (e.g. DS9) Crap movie, but it was sci fi.

Even rubbish Nemesis was sci fi. The thread throughout - to what extent can a clone (B4, Shinzon) be 'me'?

And the much overlooked The Voyage Home is one of the finest examples of environmental sci fi ever seen on screen. The idea that whales have a connection with something 'alien' - that their exstinction is significant, that humans are not the only advance life on earth; it's brilliant. And funny and fun at the same time.

I'm not saying action isn't good. It is, and almost every good novel or film has action and tension and so on. Yet this film goes overboard. It is totally, totally dumb - and, is only tolerable as an action movie, since the motives, nature, and portrayal of the villain were unconvincing at best.

When I compare this to The Cage, I despair. Now that was action packed and thoughtful at the same time. It was about exploration, and new worlds. This film had nothing to do with that.

PLUS, a bit off topic, there was no idealism. Captain Pine is fairly neanderthal towards Chekhov, getting his name wrong, as if he's this strange Russian guy in a monoethnic crew. Roddeberry's vision was that the world would be unified to the point where that wouldn't happen.

Anyway, rant over. Do you think STAR TREK is sci fi?

Unfortunately, Star Trek has been moving away from sci-fi for sometime now. :(
 
I really wanted to like this new movie. But it is an empty action flick, with no science fiction involved.:(

You're entitled to your opinion of the films entertainment value, but it is, by definition science fiction. It's in the future with faster-than-light warp drive, that's SF, soft science fiction.

Science fiction introduces scientific concepts, real or speculative, in detail and explores their social, political and emotional consequences. It has meaning. Depth.

Incorrect. Some SF deals with those issues. Check wiki for Space Opera. That's Trek.

The rest of your post is based on you faulty definition of SF.
 
I really wanted to like this new movie. But it is an empty action flick, with no science fiction involved.:(

You're entitled to your opinion of the films entertainment value, but it is, by definition science fiction. It's in the future with faster-than-light warp drive, that's SF, soft science fiction.

Science fiction introduces scientific concepts, real or speculative, in detail and explores their social, political and emotional consequences. It has meaning. Depth.

Incorrect. Some SF deals with those issues. Check wiki for Space Opera. That's Trek.

The rest of your post is based on you faulty definition of SF.

Yes, lets use wiki for the definition of Sci Fi.:rolleyes:
 
stonester1: I am strictly talking about XI, you understand. I appreciate why you think it is science fiction. However, would you at least agree with me in that it is less of a science fiction piece than many ST episodes?


Unfortunately, Star Trek has been moving away from sci-fi for sometime now.

Yes.

'Hmm..let me see..Space ships, space battles, teleportation, spider-like monsters running around the snowy planet..hmm...I'll take a leap of faith here and say: YES!'

Star Wars has many of these things and it isn't considered scince fiction, certainly not by its creator. It's fantasy, set in space.

Overgeeked said 'but it is, by definition science fiction'

No. It has elements of speculative science. They do not feature highly in the plot, and like Star Wars, are incidental to it. Time travel is the only aspect which is arguable, and even that is utterly unimportant and simply a vehicle to artificially preserve canon. The film is a hackneyed (in my view, many disagree:guffaw:) epic conflict which has no idea to its name. The idealism? I'm not keen on Roddeberry-esque idealism but it is often explored and discussed in other Treks. In TNG it is discussed and practised (Prime Directive etc.) and in DS9 it's challenged and probed (It's easy to be a saint in paradise). STXI gives no thought to the matter beyond the bare minimum of complying with canon. I would have liked to see more of the intelligent radicalism of the original for a new age, e.g. with a Muslim commader and a gay helmsman (have we already have that!:lol:) but I guess I'm asking too much.

It's in the future with faster-than-light warp drive, that's SF, soft science fiction.

Actually soft sci-fi is not action w/ warp drive; rather it focuses more on scoial/political issues than on exact science. See Le Guin for soft sci-fi.

'Incorrect. Some SF deals with those issues. Check wiki for Space Opera. That's Trek.

The rest of your post is based on you faulty definition of SF.
'

Very well - I don't think pure space opera is sci-fi, and that hasn't been what Trek traditionally was.

Do you people really think that classic and modern Star Trek was just as dumb as this film is? I'm surprised.

“Star Trek” as a concept has voyaged far beyond science fiction and into the safe waters of space opera, but that doesn’t amaze me. The Gene Roddenberry years, when stories might play with questions of science, ideals or philosophy, have been replaced by stories reduced to loud and colorful action. Roger Ebert. I agree with him.
 
I really wanted to like this new movie. But it is an empty action flick, with no science fiction involved.:(

You're entitled to your opinion of the films entertainment value, but it is, by definition science fiction. It's in the future with faster-than-light warp drive, that's SF, soft science fiction.

Science fiction introduces scientific concepts, real or speculative, in detail and explores their social, political and emotional consequences. It has meaning. Depth.

Incorrect. Some SF deals with those issues. Check wiki for Space Opera. That's Trek.

The rest of your post is based on you faulty definition of SF.

Yes, lets use wiki for the definition of Sci Fi.:rolleyes:

For someone who doesn't quite understand what SF is (as the OP), wiki is a great place to start.

Is wiki perfect, no. Is wiki completely worthless, no.
 
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