Is Spock an Augment?

[Agenda]

Consider how some say he was not conceived naturally, but was rather genetically engineered to be the first Vulcan/Human hybrid.

Then consider how badass he is. How superintelligent he is. Maybe while trying to reconcile his two alien halves, they did a little shuffling of some of his other genes to make him a wee bit superior to the rest. Or a lot superior. Maybe he has a little bit of Khan in 'im and he doesn't even know it.

 

[BillJ]

Good question. But I don't think so. McCoy didn't think he could take Stonn in Amok Time while in the blood fever. If anything I would've thought that would've made Spock much more 'competitive' than under normal circumstances.

 

[VulcanVixen]

I highly doubt that Spock is genetically engineered considering how segregated he is from his own kind. Like in the latest film, those boys called his mother a "whore", whores have sex, so naturally, his mom would have had to have wonderful WHOREY sex with a vulcan, Spock's father. But I hate having to refer to the film... I don't think it's 'out there' to think he could have been a test tube baby, but I would not like to think so, considering his father and mother are together... ya know?

 

[Pauln6]

If we're talking 'realistically' the odds of ANY alien species being able to breed naturally are unbelievably remote. It's believed that all life on Earth developed from simple cells so we have common ancestry will all other life on Earth and yet humans cannot breed with our nearest relatives, the chimpanzee, with whom we share something like 99.98 DNA.

To suggest that a human could conceive naturally with an alien whose blood chemistry is based on copper is bonkers, even for Star Trek logic. Most probably compatible genitic material would have had to be inserted into an egg and it would have had to be incubated in surrogate or in Amanda with extreme medical intervention.

 

[Anwar]

Well, we saw Amanda giving birth to Spock the old fashioned way in the Star Trek V flashback. And there is the progenitor common origin thing to consider too.

But it was mentioned a few times in VOY that people underwent gene engineering so they could breed together. So maybe it was Sarek and Amanda who underwent the gene engineering to conceive Spock to begin with.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always just thought Spock was half-Vulcan and simply a brilliant scientist in his own right.


I don't think everyone who has above average abilities is genetically engineered. Spock probably was pushed to excelling in science at an early age by Sarek and is just naturally strong because of his Vulcan half.

 

[Forbin]

Is Spock an Augment?

No.

Next question.

 

[DevilEyes]

If we're talking 'realistically' the odds of ANY alien species being able to breed naturally are unbelievably remote. It's believed that all life on Earth developed from simple cells so we have common ancestry will all other life on Earth and yet humans cannot breed with our nearest relatives, the chimpanzee, with whom we share something like 99.98 DNA.

To suggest that a human could conceive naturally with an alien whose blood chemistry is based on copper is bonkers, even for Star Trek logic. Most probably compatible genitic material would have had to be inserted into an egg and it would have had to be incubated in surrogate or in Amanda with extreme medical intervention.

Realism has nothing to do with Star Trek. Neither does real science.

There was never any indication that any of the Trek hybrids were anything but naturally conceived and born and indeed we know that at least some of them certainly were not (Alexander Rozhenko, Tora Ziyal, Dukat's other illegimate child with Mika...).

Next question?

 

[Misfit Toy]

Well, we saw Amanda giving birth to Spock the old fashioned way in the Star Trek V flashback. And there is the progenitor common origin thing to consider too.

But it was mentioned a few times in VOY that people underwent gene engineering so they could breed together. So maybe it was Sarek and Amanda who underwent the gene engineering to conceive Spock to begin with.

The 1976 album "Inside Star Trek" featured an interview between Gene Roddenberry and Sarek (Mark Lenard) in which Sarek said the following:

"As you must know, an Earth-Vulcan conception will abort during the end of the first month. The fetus is unable to continue life once it begins to develop its primary organs. The fetus Spock was removed from Amanda's body at this time--first such experiment ever attempted. His tiny form resided in a test tube for the following two Earth months, while our physicians performed delicate chemical engineering, introducing over a hundred subtle changes that we hoped would sustain life. At the end of this time, the fetus was returned to Amanda's womb. At the ninth Earth month, the tiny form was again removed from Amanda, prematurely by Vulcan standards, and spent the following four months Vulcan term pregnancy in a specially designed incubator. The infant Spock proved surprisingly resilient--there seems to be something about the Earth-Vulcan mixture, which created in that.. tiny body.. a fierce determination to survive."

I know it's not canon, but it's as close to an actual answer as you'll come.

 

[Agenda]

I actually heard about the test tube thing once. Maybe they "spiced up the mix" a bit while they were at it.

 

[Agenda]

Good question. But I don't think so. McCoy didn't think he could take Stonn in Amok Time while in the blood fever. If anything I would've thought that would've made Spock much more 'competitive' than under normal circumstances.

To me that comment by McCoy doesn't make much sense in any case. You'd think that, biologically speaking, Pon Farr would only increase the capacity of Vulcans to fight for their mate. Whether genetically enhanced or not, I thought that would give Spock an advantage over Stonn.

 

[Doran]

Somewhere in TOS they talk of an ancient race that seeded the galaxy and explains so many humaniod races through out. Don't ask me specifics, but this is what i seem to recall. But I think I have to agree with anwar on this one, there had to be a bit of medical tampering to ensure genetic compatability. It's only logical.

 

[BillJ]

Good question. But I don't think so. McCoy didn't think he could take Stonn in Amok Time while in the blood fever. If anything I would've thought that would've made Spock much more 'competitive' than under normal circumstances.

To me that comment by McCoy doesn't make much sense in any case. You'd think that, biologically speaking, Pon Farr would only increase the capacity of Vulcans to fight for their mate. Whether genetically enhanced or not, I thought that would give Spock an advantage over Stonn.

That and Stonn looked like a grade-A weenie!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Good point. Artificial hybrids between two species have got to be genetically engineered in some regards. The Federation's prohibition on augments is so irrational, though, they probably had no problem making an exception for "innocuous" hybrids who were engineered only because that was the only way they could exist at all.

I love it when after all this time, somebody come up with a Trek concept that I hadn't run across before.

 

[Anwar]

Is Augmentation the same thing as the parents undergoing gene treatments for interbreeding, though?

 

[Agenda]

Good question. But I don't think so. McCoy didn't think he could take Stonn in Amok Time while in the blood fever. If anything I would've thought that would've made Spock much more 'competitive' than under normal circumstances.

To me that comment by McCoy doesn't make much sense in any case. You'd think that, biologically speaking, Pon Farr would only increase the capacity of Vulcans to fight for their mate. Whether genetically enhanced or not, I thought that would give Spock an advantage over Stonn.

That and Stonn looked like a grade-A weenie!

It's also possible that Spock has tried to hide the true extent of his physical capabilities from Starfleet, much like Julian Bashir did. Maybe not even McCoy knows what he's really capable of. Or maybe it wasn't his body that was enhanced, but rather his mind.

Or maybe this whole theory is full of shit.

 

[Timo]

It seems insane to assume that all genetic manipulation would lead to superior specimen, let alone ones with superior ambition and both the capacity and desire for superior evil. Most of the manipulation is probably done to give complete losers at least some hope for parity; this is what was done for Julian Bashir, and probably also what was done for Spock.

Genetic manipulation in the name of evening out the odds is not really forbidden. In "Dr Bashir, I Presume", the Admiral who throws the book at Sisko and Bashir specifically says that the laws exist to prevent the creation of supermen, and Bashir himself specifies that the laws prohibit certain specific techniques. Elsewhere, the plot specifies that Bashir was indeed augmented not merely to cope in the society, but to be better than other people, thereby going against the spirit and letter of the law. Lots of specificity there - and little in the way of general rules.

If the Bashirs had settled for mere parity, they might not have broken the law at all. It would depend on whether the specific, banned techniques were absolutely needed for parity, or whether parity was otherwise attained and they were just a little extra that the Bashirs approved so that their boy could get an edge over his classmates.

Besides, genetic manipulation for the creation of superior specimen is apparently perfectly okay when it's done in the name of science, under controlled conditions. Or that's what seems to be the case in TNG "Unnatural Selection". Makes sense, too. Slashing people with knives is a big no-no, unless you are a surgeon. For all we know, it's the fact that the treatment was given to Bashir that was illegal, not the treatment in itself.

As for whether pon farr would increase the prowess of the fighter, I don't see why it should. Generally, hormonal aggression in the nature does not produce better fighters. It merely produces more aggressive fighters, who may be at a disadvantage for their very aggression. Hormones may give you stamina (or more probably make you ignore that your stamina is failing you) but they are less likely to give you skill or even strength.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bluedana]

Being conceived in a "test tube" (ugh, hate that term - it's called "in vitro") doesn't mean you don't have sex. It means that the egg and sperm need help getting together and achieving viability. Happens all the time. It also requires some small measure of genetic engineering, in the sense that the "best" and most seemingly-viable embryoes are selected for implantation. This is 20th century science. By the 24th century, especially if you're talking about "Vulcan" reproductive science, there's no reason to think that there wouldn't be some selectivity going on in other aspects, not just viability, so that the most promising embryoes (intelligence, genetic disease-free, strength) would be chosen for implantation. It doesn't necessarily make Spock an Augment in the Khan sense, but does make it likely that the Spock-embryo was the best of the bunch. In vitro conception also doesn't preclude Sarek and Amanda going at it like bunnies, if they were so inclined, and has nothing to do with birth, in which you really only have the two options: surgical or non-surgical.

Stonn would have had an advantage over Spock in battle, regardless, because Stonn was living (presumably) on Vulcan, in Vulcan's higher gravity, whereas Spock was not. Spock had been living for many years under Earth-normal conditions, and would be weaker for it.

 

[Pauln6]

They edited out the bit where Amanda gave birth - quite wisely. I supposie its feasible if they could implant a machine that allowed iron-based haemoglobin to pass its oxygen onto the baby's copper-based blood but naturally the baby would starve because of the icompatible blood chemistry.

The Preserver genetic manipulation was a sweet but not really viable explanation for cross-species breeding. After all, the Preservers also created chimpanzees. Manipulation in a lab is the only way to create these cross-breeds. It's also worth noting that those species who can cross-breed like donkeys & horses, or lions and tigers, usually produce sterile offspring.

 

[Timo]

But the TNG Proto-humanoids or Progenitors (not the Preservers, who were a completely different bunch with different motivations and habits in "Paradise Syndrome") didn't necessarily make the chimpanzees. Instead, they inserted secret orders in the machinery of evolution so that at some point, a suitable species would be perverted into something resembling the Progenitors themselves. It happened once with the dinosaurs, and once with the mammals - and no doubt the Voth could have bred with humans if they wanted! What happens in evolution before this "forced" humanoid emerges is apparently left to chance, and need not feature the nice compatibility that characterizes the final products.

No doubt the very plan of the Progenitors was to make all the sapient humanoids they bred cross-compatible, in order to promote cooperation or competition or other blood sports they favored...

Timo Saloniemi